E-Touch / E-Collar training

[scotsgent]

Bill,

Just for clarity, when i say de-activated collar, I mean the standard e-collar switched off - ie. de-activated

Cheers, Terry

[Martindeeley]

Wow, did I spark you all off again.

Sometimes I want the dog to know the stim came from me and sometimes I want the dog to relate it to what is should not be doing. There is no one way.

It was written in one letter
“"...While it is possible to train dogs to obey commands under distraction at a distance without the e-collar, why would you try?"
1) Because the method being described is purely Positive Punishment followed immediately by Negative Reinforcement. An aversive is applied (tap,tap, tap - positive punishment) until the dog offers the desired behavior and then the aversive is removed (Negative Reinforcement). An important point here is that the Negative Reinforcement will not work unless the Positive Punishment is applied first. The proof that the (tap, tap, tap) is, indeed, aversive from the dog's point of view, is that the negative reinforcement works.

2) Because the same result can be achieved more quickly, using Postive Reinforcement, using 'lure/reward' training. “

At a distance it is difficult to lure and reward. Yes you can teach the stop and sit, up close and then gradually teach it further and further but how you lure and reward at 20 yards never mind 200 puzzles me. But I also disagree with the second statement also. Why does it have to be punishment? It can bring your dogs attention to the command. It can initially be the command or part of it. It does not have to be negative reinforcement or punishment. Something that gets your attention and helps you do an acceptable behavior is difficult to put into any of the quadrants I would suggest. It may even be a motivator.

We are falling into the trap once more of looking at what happened in the past. Dog does not follow a command. Get out there and correct with punishment. Yes you can do that with the collar but I would not do it unless firstly the dog was willfully disobeying and secondly completely accepted the collar for this purpose. If he does not understand the collar then you can get unwanted behaviors. At a level which catches his attention gets him looking at you and taking a command has to be a positive. Even just distracting him lightly form the wrong behavior so that he looks to you for help is not a strong aversive. If this action has him obtaining a signal from you that results in a reward, a smile or better still the retrieve then he is going to see it as a positive stimulus and not an aversive or a punishment.

Keep thinking on all this – it is important. Dog does wrong and we think punishment. We should be thinking, dog does wrong, he is keen, or he does not know enough etc etc and then how do we help him. The first part of helping is to get his focus on us. Punishment does not do this.

When clients come to me for help with training, I cannot say take this collar and come back in 3 weeks. I get to work immediately. I have done the same with my own dogs and balanced with other training approaches and by creating a good relationship with the dog I have found no problems. I would advise always to wear a collar fro a few days before using it but in practice I do not.

The most important part of all of this is to introduce the collar correctly and build up the dogs understanding through using it for many actions and training. Mix it with other forms of support and assistance and also corrections with your voice and body so that you get a dog that respects your leadership and partnership and then you phase the collar out.

The ability to help the dog, communicate clearly and guide with the collar is second to none. And mostly I feel because it helps the dog make decisions rather than you doing it with a physical contactor a food lure. The dog is thinking and making decisions that you reward in many ways. Used correctly it builds a confidence in the dog.

[Snicklefritz]

Pat Nolan - is using the ecollar to teach obedience behaviors. The link is perfectly clear on that matter. In behaviorist terms 'punishment' is something that will cause a decrease in behavior. There is nothing that says 'punishmet' needs to be painful or abusive in any way. But, it must decrease behavior to be called punishment. What is punishment is determined by the dog, not by the trainer. So, I used the term aversive to try and avoid the misunderstanding associated with the term 'punishment'. Nevertheless, Nolan is using an aversive followed by negative reinforcement to treach a new skill.

'Lure/Reward' training is also used to teach the same new behaviors without the intentional use of aversives. In both cases, if deliberate and thorough efforts are not made to help the dog generalize from the training setting to the field and other settings the dog will encounter, the dog will not perform reliably outside of the training setting. This is where I believe many if not most trainers drop the ball. They are in too big a hurry to get on to the 'sexy' stuff of gundog training and get there dog into the field at the earliest possible moment.

We all know that so called 'obedience' is indirectly proportional to distance, but has anyone ever stopped to ask why? Here's my take on that. A dog is attracted by all kinds of things in the environment. We know that the closer an attractor is to the dog, the more attraction it has. The trainer is also an attractor, but when the dog is at a distance, other attractors that are competeing for the dog's attention are closer to the dog than the trainer. So, the dog is weighing the relative strength of the different attractors, and unfortunately, if the trainer is far away, or is just not attractive to the dog, the dog will go with the strongest attractor. Notice I did not use the term 'distraction' because 'distractions' are really attractors from the dog's point of view. If we adopt the dog's point of view we can begin to see why the dog ignores the trainer at a distance, and we can deal with that. That's the very reason skills are taught up close in a low 'distraction' environment - so we won't be competing in the beginning.

But, then we jump from a low 'distraction' environment to a high 'distraction' evnvironment and expect the dog to weigh the various attractions the same way he did in the yard. And, when they don't respond reliablly, we say they are being disobedient. One way to overcome this in the field is to move up closer to the dog so that you stay 'in range' of your own attractiiveness. Then we slowly increase that range. But, tennis shoes and patience seem to have gone out of style.

Another 2 cents

[cocker]

I have trained many working breeds in the past and having just finished training my cocker,to a level that i am happy with,may i just say that in training any breed of dog i dont think there is a real need for the use of these collars,it seems to me that they are used to speed things up,or to correct someone elses mistakes i could be wrong which i am often,but for me i like to be patient when training and try and be one step ahead of the dog at all times,dogs are not robots and i think having a remote control in your hand makes them just that,remember this is my opinion i could be wrong as i have never used them,but have seen them abused

[WGD]

or to correct someone elses mistakes

Or your own, I'm not too proud to admit that

[cocker]

or to correct someone elses mistakes

Or your own, I'm not too proud to admit that

Well we all make mistakes,still wouldnt use the collar to correct

[shanagan]

or to correct someone elses mistakes

Or your own, I'm not too proud to admit that

Well we all make mistakes,still wouldnt use the collar to correct

I think u have made your point in your previous post but this thread isnt about right or wrong more about informed choice and if one chooses to use a collar then how to use it to the best method available !!!

[scotsgent]

Martin,

Just for interest, how might you advise WGD (in his post above and copied below) to attempt to solve his problem.

Please make the assumption that he has never used an e-collar before (which I think is the case anyway).

I know you can't see the dog, but maybe a general possibility or two just to paint a picture for us and continue to keep us thinking?

Regards, Terry

Having read this thread from end to end and having looked into e-collars previously I am seriously considering the merits of being able to "get to" the dog without killing myself on tangled brambles, dead bracken and falling branches in the process.

I am moving into the first real shooting season with my young spaniel, who is exemplary in the training field (aren't they all ) but is somewhat more "enthusiastic" when there is an abundance of live game about. I am working her in the beating line when I am not on a peg and in the 3 days we have been out this season she has started well, gotten a bit more ragged and tightened up again after some correction - me getting to her, pulling her back into position by the scruff and giving a tug of the lug. Not perfect, but the way I do it. I will also shoot over her on walked up days every other Saturday for the rest of season now. She is very hot, like Wullie's dog Charlie, so she is always on the edge.

At nearly 2 years old and with a full summer of 1 to 1 training behind her she is more than capabale and knows what each and every voice and whistle command means. To move on in training, and ultimately to use the dog for the purpose for which I got her i.e. to shoot over her, I need to introduce more distraction by way of live game. In that situation the cover is thicker, there other people, guns and dogs to think about and chasing down a wayward spaniel isn't always possible.

So is wearing a modern collar, like a Dogtra collar for example, and being able to give the dog a tap the instant the whistle is ignored the way forward, it certainly makes a lot of sense to me to advance TRAINING. Off to see what kind of hit the bank balance is going to have to take now!

[Martindeeley]

You are right Terry; I have not seen the dog. Saying that there are two ways to look at this. One is without the collar and two is with the collar. In England where I trained and trialed many spaniels I never used the collar on them. Now there is a revelation. And they did very well for me. I had some great dogs. Remember however that was 14 years ago and the collars were not as adjustable as they are now. With the collars back then where you had to change the points I was not willing to run the dogs at a level which was above the comfort zone most of the time because it had to work when the adrenaline was up. Usually with dogs that become a little uncontrollable the training has not been enough or correct for that type of dog with that drive and often it is because we have not trained in situations where the right form of distraction has been available. My main training was done in rabbit pens, pheasant pens during rearing season, dogging in on the estates and then the shoots of course where often I would go the day after and quarter the ground for birds that had fallen after the shoot was over. I was lucky in that I had great keeper friends. When we go into the field we have to remember that it is new to the dog and he is not as excited as he will be when he has been in it a few times. Especially after he has had a few flushes and retrieves. So we need to be constantly maintaining the control and that in most cases, forget this positive stuff, means corrections when basically he ahs blown you off. You can go back two or three stages and out hi in the way of temptation and he will not go wrong. Take him into the shooting field where there is a lot of excitement other dogs, birds, heavy scent and guns and it is a different matter.

When the collar began to be more adjustable I began to use it on spaniels to turn while quartering and, to stop to the flush and to prompt the control I required. It is not a magic elixir and you need to be able to train first and get your timing right to ensure you do not create other problems. Pointing, blinking, avoiding looking at the flush route are only three Introduce the collar correctly, gain confidence and hunderstaanding, help the dog understand by using the collar in partnership with correct training. But tapping with the turn whistle, tapping on the flush and a sit whistle, tapping for thee recall does work very well. This is not correction in the majority of instances because when I do this I help and redirect him to a reward, a find a tennis ball, a rabbit, a dummy a bird. I want the dog to realize paradise comes from watching me. So if I can get him to answer my signals and in doing so he then gets a reward. The prompt becomes the beginning of a chain to the reward. Hope that makes some sense.

Now in case others say you don’t want to make mistakes with the e-collar. We have all made the same mistakes with a long line and even without one.

Once more it is training, some dogs are more driven than others, some are more honest than others, some accept control and training better than others. But at the end of the day once more – you are the trainer and the handler. If you get to know your dog and use the tools and approaches correctly in =gradual stages and then on shoot days firstly, don’t over tire them (their brain goes before their body) where they then do not listen, do not put them in situations and places where you will loose control, and don’t be afraid to tell the keeper or your friends the stage your dog is at and refuse to put him in a situation that will develop bad habits. Think it all through and if you must, go with the dog to keep him in control distance. Help your dog to learn control. The collar only assists you in training and the more you train correctly (forget the collar) and prepare then the more you will hear others say - he 's a good dog, must be a natural. The good trainers seem to have to do very little with their dogs when it comes to running them. It just flow. The harder you work the less you seem to have done and the luckier you are.

Martin

[Martindeeley]

If he has never used the collar then learn how to use it correctly. Take time to introduce it and where possible get experienced help. Now the latter part may be difficult. It is not a race and in training remember both you and your dog are learning. Train at the pace of your dog and yourself. If you are unsure then take time to learn the collar on easy stuff and if in real doubt - go back to a long line.

Martin