Gundog Training Forum

Sandra wrote:

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/g ... nimals.cfm

Don't know if anyone has seen this and would be interested in completing the survey.

I had a look at the BASC site who are 'managing' this survey.

Here is their official standpoint on e-collars:

BASC policy is that such collars – in the hands of an experienced trainer – can be useful if all other methods have failed and may ensure that a dog does not have to be destroyed.

So, by definition, they understand that an e-collar can ONLY be used as a powerful aversive and nothing else.

So if this understanding is held by the organisation which represents shooting sports in this country, then there is little chance of better education for the ordinary bloke!

Cheers, Terry

I found this:

All credits to the Author, Alice Woodyard.

This focuses on the introduction, using the recall as the vehicle. After reading it a couple of times, I got the gist, It might be of interest?

She seems to favour the continuous button rather than the tap?

Introduction of the E-collar by Alice Woodyard

The introduction is on the behavior of coming to the handler. It’s easy.

Dog is introduced to “e” in a “distraction-free” and “neutral” environment using the procedure described below.

Distraction free has the obvious meaning. Seminars are not typically distraction free, BTW.

By neutral I mean if he’s a working dog of some kind, you do not introduce “e” in his working venue. If he is your duck dog, you do not introduce “e” in your duck blind. Etc.

Dog is introduced at a low level “barely tingle” type of intensity which, in the popular description, is just what he twitches an ear at. If he feels it enough to move an ear, it is enough for him to register and enough for him to change behavior as a result of (his ear just proved it) if the intro area is distraction free and the IE procedure is followed (below).

IE means immediate elicitation. You are going to help right away, with onset of stim, using a pre-determined effective method (effective for that dog/handler) of eliciting the behavior. Immediate so that you don’t leave Fido puzzling, where you “only help if you have to give the command twice” or some criterion like that. You are prepared to elicit when you start the stim, and if there’s a long line involved, you’re holding it, not chasing down a dragging line which would cause delay.

You have prepped on some dry runs on your chosen eliciting method just prior to starting the “e” work, so you know that (a) it will work and (b) you have established a faint pattern in Fido to help him follow the first time you stim.

What do I mean, “elicit”? Because you have previously checked out the dog and owner you have identified one or more effective methods that will get the dog to turn toward the handler when you want it to happen. If the dog has “obedience training” the choice can be obvious—it is called a Known Command. But for elicitation purposes note that it is not the same as a “command” per se with its connotation of “if he doesn’t obey it...then...”. Rather, it is you taking advantage of a trained dog’s conditioned response when he hears the word Come. In a pet without a lot of training, it could be what I call social elicitation: how they used to call the dog when he was a puppy. Dog’s Name a couple of times, clap hands, happy chat, etc. If he is a food-trained dog, maybe it is the showing and offering of treats. For the Training Enthusiast’s dog, it is probably a known command followed by happy praise, which continues the elicitation so that the dog does not pause in his “performance.” I discourage the Enthusiast from starting with the dog’s name for this exercise, BTW. Definitely it could include 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... “commands” as needed, which is something you generally need to explain to the Enthusiast because he/she will have ingrained inhibitions against ”repeating commands.” If the check out indicates this owner cannot get his dog to at least turn towards him pretty consistently when dog is undistracted, then the dog is on a line. Pulling on the line elicits the turn. Person is holding the end of the line. It is not dragging because getting to it would be too slow for these first lessons and Fido could be in a confused state while you chase down the line. Also, you pull, you don’t jerk. The line is not correcting the dog; it is showing him. I prefer to avoid use of lines if I can see that good elicitation will be possible. You are more likely to need lines with a pet than an Enthusiast’s dog but often pets do not need them either.

Do a few dry runs (no stim) in which handler causes Fido to come towards him by the chosen method(s). Then...
When the wandering dog is pointed away from the handler, press the button (pressure on) and elicit in the same moment. In other words, pressure goes on and you help immediately and Non Contingently. Non-contingently means that you do not wait to see what the dog will do. You StimAndElicit.

The moment the dog has oriented to and made a slight motion toward the handler (I call it a U turn but it may be barely that), release button (pressure off). Stim will be on only briefly. This is not a complete Come, it is teaching the dog to control stim by doing something, in this case orienting to the handler. It is only the first lesson but in many ways it is the dog’s most important “e” lesson.

If this looks a little like “shaping” to a clicker trainer, I suppose you could say it might share some of those properties. You aren’t after the whole behavior. You are after the dog’s mind. You want him to notice the ”pressure on/his own motion/pressure off” chain of events. The elicited U turn is a very dog-friendly way to start.

I encourage the handler to praise the dog briefly as he turns away from the dog and to then walk off in the away direction after turning the dog. The praise keeps the dog coming his way, and the walk-away encourages the dog to follow and then overtake the handler. This keeps the dog freed-up and wandering around so you can have more repetitions.

Walk around and repeat.

Shortly (typically within the 1st lesson) you see the dog change some behavior that tells you he’s making a connection (aka “first light bulb sign”). Often this is an extra quick motion that he makes as he turns. He is trying to beat the stim. Or he may start to do something that constitutes anticipation of a chain of events. E.g., if handler has been typically calling and stimming when Fido is about 45 feet away you will see Fido start to turn on his own at 41 feet. That kind of thing. It will be so subtle that I have to point it out to the handler, but it is there.

Now you have a platform to gradually weaken the elicitation stuff because the dog’s knowledge of “turning off the collar” can start replacing its role. Using pressure on/pressure off, you can shape the rest of your “come” to include coming all the way to you and staying with you until released. You can add a command in the traditional sense of command (or keep using what you’ve been using to elicit, and it is your command). You can wean away from auto stim (stim with the first command) in favor of contingent stim (stim only if first command is ignored). Pressure on/pressure off timing of stim can be changed to burst-type “correction” stim analogous to popping a leash. You can gradually introduce distractions until your dog’s reliability astounds you. You take things to your working venues if any. You and your dog have a new world to explore.

Intensity issues: Using a very low “ear twitch” intensity is important for this first lesson. However, some dogs (the Leaping Larry Lab type) are so happy-go-lucky that as soon as they are put into “wandering around” mode their sensitivity threshold rises, and to still have what is “ear twitch” level stim you have to increase the nominal level above what you first selected when they were standing still. Note this is not to be confused with raising the level “to make him do it.” The stim is NOT making the naive dog do anything at first. Eliciting the behavior is up to the trainer. Also note that the trainer who raises the stim level can easily confuse himself as to what is happening, because if Fido is “getting hurt” he will likely seek the owner for safety but that is not the mind-lesson I am seeking in the intro process. It is possible you need to adjust the stim level to achieve the first lesson; I don’t counsel having a preconceived “do” or “don’t” about raising stim in the first lesson. Just don’t be too quick to go up. If he can feel it, believe me he is learning.

Confusion is avoided by doing the “e” intro in a distraction-free environment and staying in that environment until the initial light bulb goes on so that nothing competes with the dog’s attention on the experience. Confusion and protest behaviors are avoided by establishing an effective method of eliciting the behavior you want ahead of time, and applying your elicitation method immediately and non contingently when first introducing the “e” and until you see that first light bulb sign. You stack everything you can in favor of the dog learning to “win” right away.

Alice Woodyard
Sacramento, CA

Alice Woodyard is a very knowledgeable and skilled trainer. Been working with collars longer than I have and been an advisor to Tritronics for years. Had many interesting and educating conversations with her.

As for the BASC statement - unfortunately this is a commonly held opinion based on old style training and collars. Plus dare I say it - a lack of trust in their fellow man.

I would also guess all that is mixed with a smattering of politics and being correct. But in this case they are now not totally correct. Just political.

Martin

martin,
my young lab bitch is brilliant in all departments except she will not stop hunting an area if it has any recent scent. recently the bird she has been sent for has been snaffled by one of the other dogs on the shoot (which happens on occasion) This has happened two or three times recently. she completely ignore any commands ,whistles or even shouts and i have to go out to her which isnt my idea of fun due to a back injury.. she responds well at all other times as do my other five dogs !!!! I am pleased she will not give up on a lost bird be it dead or a runner but i need to get her attention when i know the bird has been retreived so am thinking of using the collar on a very low setting ( a tap) to achieve this.. any suggestions please ....No anti collar comments please !!!!!

Strangely enough Dave what you have just described is exactly the problem I saw a pro trainer and trialer use an e- collar for some years ago. I watched one of the lessons. He treated it as a basic recall problem and I think he was correct. The dog very quickly learned to recall even when hunting for a shot bird.
The trainer told me he'd given the dog about 5 or 6 lessons.

That trainer is an "A" Panel retriever judge and I was sworn to secrecy not to reveal who he is .........his reputation would have suffered.

Wullie

Martin,

Do you stock the "Tritronics Retriever training" book in your store?

(I'm not even sure if its still in print since any reference I can see of it indicates it only has one edition and that was 1993). There are some second-hand ones available in the USA, but I thought I would ask you first.

Cheers, Terry

shanagan wrote:martin,
my young lab bitch is brilliant in all departments except she will not stop hunting an area if it has any recent scent. recently the bird she has been sent for has been snaffled by one of the other dogs on the shoot (which happens on occasion) This has happened two or three times recently. she completely ignore any commands ,whistles or even shouts and i have to go out to her which isnt my idea of fun due to a back injury.. she responds well at all other times as do my other five dogs !!!! I am pleased she will not give up on a lost bird be it dead or a runner but i need to get her attention when i know the bird has been retreived so am thinking of using the collar on a very low setting ( a tap) to achieve this.. any suggestions please ....No anti collar comments please !!!!!

Dave i have had this same problem and put it down to the dog being so focused and intent on what its doing its not ignoring you deliberatly its mindset in my opinion is completly locked on the scent. The e coller alows you to tap the dog on the shoulder and remind it to listen to you, it took just two incidents of the type you describe with useing the e collar to get the dog understanding what i wanted hope i have explained well enough Brian

I don’t have any copies of the Retriever Training for sale - only my own copies. Sorry.

With a dog that will not leave the ground I will set up a training exercise to help him. For example, drop a dummy (less exciting), walk away as though a memory retrieve, as you walk away have a friend pick up the dummy unseen to the dog. Turn around and send him. Let him hunt for a while and then when he is not looking put another dummy or better still a cold bird or rabbit near where you are. Call him away by going close, catching his attention asking him to sit, and then giving a hand signal towards where the bird is now lying. The moment he moves that way praise him and help him find it. He needs to trust you. If you have introduced the collar previously, tap him with the collar and have him sit. Make him wait to clear his brain and then again give the signal or guide him towards the bird. If he stays in the area and ignores you then you have not done enough obedience type work to create the relationship of trust and obedience. In this instance go back to sit and directional training. If you feel you have done enough training if he refuses to leave the are again have him sit with a tap on the collar, then tap him again and give him a Hey I don’t think so words and look. Then direct him once more to find the bird you have put down. The second tap after he has sat is a brain clearer. Sometimes called indirect pressure because it is not really directed towards anything except listening to you and obeying your next command. Increase the distance you can do this from the dog in small stages.

Goes against all the principles of training because you tap him almost as a correction after he has done something you asked him to do – sit. But think about it. How often has this been done to you? You don’t do something you are asked, you parent or whoever asks you to come to them, they then correct you with a slap or verbal word and then ask you again. It does not have to be harsh or strong, just enough to say – I mean the next command.

Martin

i,m sure the fault is mine because during the summer i attended group training sessions with various others including a few mates and run by a pro trainer who is another pal .. the basic session was to send our dogs for retrieves mainly seen.. sometimes not, but usually in the same area and up to 150 yards + the idea was to train in steadiness as you had to wait for up to 15 others to send their dogs before it was your turn again. everyone thought my young bitch was brilliant, being so young and not giving up on the retrieve until she found it..the problem being there was always a retrieve at the end of it.. it certainly worked for the steadiness and marking and even for the blinds, but the problem i have now is she believes there will always be a bird there somewhere !!!! she has been wearing the collar the past few days in the kennel as she has picked up from the cockers the rather nasty habit of playing with her poo (she eats it and then throws it up again) so i have given her a couple of mid range taps or maybe that should be belts with the collar which touch wood has worked miraculously ..she has actually avoided it for two days now... I have never used the collar for training having bought it a long time ago for a persistant barker.. anyway having read this thread lately i thought i would ask the question !!! It has many settings (pac) a bit bulky but very good quality.. Thanks for your reply martin, I will give it a go next time it happens.. I suppose its a case of starting very low then increasing until u can see a slight reaction from the dog ?

Martindeeley wrote:I don’t have any copies of the Retriever Training for sale - only my own copies. Sorry.

With a dog that will not leave the ground I will set up a training exercise to help him. For example, drop a dummy (less exciting), walk away as though a memory retrieve, as you walk away have a friend pick up the dummy unseen to the dog. Turn around and send him. Let him hunt for a while and then when he is not looking put another dummy or better still a cold bird or rabbit near where you are. Call him away by going close, catching his attention asking him to sit, and then giving a hand signal towards where the bird is now lying. The moment he moves that way praise him and help him find it. He needs to trust you. If you have introduced the collar previously, tap him with the collar and have him sit. Make him wait to clear his brain and then again give the signal or guide him towards the bird. If he stays in the area and ignores you then you have not done enough obedience type work to create the relationship of trust and obedience. In this instance go back to sit and directional training. If you feel you have done enough training if he refuses to leave the are again have him sit with a tap on the collar, then tap him again and give him a Hey I don’t think so words and look. Then direct him once more to find the bird you have put down. The second tap after he has sat is a brain clearer. Sometimes called indirect pressure because it is not really directed towards anything except listening to you and obeying your next command. Increase the distance you can do this from the dog in small stages.

Goes against all the principles of training because you tap him almost as a correction after he has done something you asked him to do – sit. But think about it. How often has this been done to you? You don’t do something you are asked, you parent or whoever asks you to come to them, they then correct you with a slap or verbal word and then ask you again. It does not have to be harsh or strong, just enough to say – I mean the next command.

Martin

Brilliant Martin - not because I agree with you, but because that is just good damned dog training. On the other hand, it all could have been done without the tap . in fact, you have allowed for the opposite with your phrase '...If you have introduced the collar previously...'. We agree on much more than we disagree on ''...If he ignores you...' it comes down to relationship and prior training.

But, you don't need my applause...your heart is in the right place

Indirect Pressure is a topic that most are not familiar with. Perhaps, you could give your take on exactly what that means?

Snick