E-Touch / E-Collar training

[Martindeeley]

Thanks for your reply martin, I will give it a go next time it happens.. I suppose its a case of starting very low then increasing until u can see a slight reaction from the dog ?

Nope, you will find the level, when the dog is not excited first, and teach the dog on that level to come back to you, and then to sit, first near to you and then at a distance and when he understands this without any concerns you can go onto the exercize using the collar at possibly one level higher because of the excitement and concentration level of the dog. You know, you can do this without the collar - After you send your dog just move closer to control distance and then stop her and redirect. Increase the distance gradually that you can control.
If I have got one lesson or piece of advice across, I hope it is - DONT USE THE COLAR WITHOUT A CLEAR AND WELL COMPLETED INTRODUCTION TO THE COMMANDS YOU WANT THEM TO OBEY WITH THE COLLAR BEING USED. In this case remember there is a distance situation unless you move closer. All these factors play against you and i do not want you raising the level and by doing so concern her or surprise her. And by doing or that collar is like so stop her hunting in the future or deciding not to go at all. There are repercussions if you use it incorrectly and then those that do use it incorrectly blame the collar.

You may get away with it if she is highly motivated to hunt, but it is not my way or what I would advise. Create understanding through working on the right low level in simple situations first. Not sure what the PAC instructions are like. But please do not put it on and hope for the best in an excited situation. Introduce it and gain familiarisation first.

Martin

[Martindeeley]

Thank you, I think Snick.

I thought you invited me onto this because it was about e-collar use therefore I have been attempting to explain how to use the e-collar in such situations. I trained dogs for years without the e-collar and achieved a fair standard. I now train dogs using the e-collar as part of my equipment and I feel I can polish them more plus I can overcome problems better with the use of the collar than some of the other ways I used to apply.

Some dogs are stronger willed and have unwanted behaviors that some positive training methods can correct, some dogs are taught unknowingly to be stronger willed and more independent than some positive approaches can correct. Some times the collar makes the training a little easier for owners who are not skilled dog trainers provided they approach the use of the collar correctly. There are many benefits to suing the collar. Yes, we can do it all without the collar but I have found many advantages from applying it and I have trained both with and without it for many years. So I like to talk about both and most times I find the best it use both approaches simultaneously. The collar helps you do the traditional and especially the very positive ways. I never take away the positive and I hope by using the collar correctly the dog understands through the collar that most of the time I am using it to help him.

Indirect Pressure – I sometimes call it a Post Unrelated Correction (PUC). . In training when we praise or correct we should be doing it within one to one and half seconds of the dog’s behavior that we want to encourage or reduce. We want to relate it to that specific action. So it follows the action. If we use the PUC what happens is that w want the dog to realize it is doing an unwanted behavior but it is not the one it has just done. Confused? Not Surprised. Let me give an example. I have sent the dog out for an unseen retrieve. I stop the dog, he sits and looks at me I give a right hand over signal, he goes left. I sit the dog, I give a right hand over signal, and he goes left. I stop him he sits, I tap him with the collar even though he has sat and repeat the sit command, and I may even tap him again and give the sit command, even though he has sat. Then after waiting a few seconds I again give a clear right hand signal. This time he will usually go right.

This is all provided you have taught signals at a distance of course.

So now you have basically corrected him when he has done right. Goes against all principles. But I believe it clears the mind. It says, hey, don’t do what you ant to do, listen to my next command and obey it. How many times have you done this without the collar? The dog goes wrong one too many times, you tell him to sit, and you go towards him and verbally threaten, even give a scruff shake and then repeat the command. Basically we are doing the same with the collar.

BUT, he has to have had a good foundation of collar work before you do this and at the distance you are working. Otherwise what happens is the dog thinks the collar means something else – the main reaction is to return to you and then you get more frustrated. But that is indirect pressure.

Martin

[cornishman]

Martin you should write THE book on e collar training Brian

[Snicklefritz]

Martin, my compliments were entirely sincere. And, no offense was intended. I did invite you to explain e-collar training and you have done an excellenet job. I have remained largely silent for that reason. My last post was by way of pointing out just how much experience in just plain good training technique underlies your use of the collar. I believe that experienece is essential to using the collar correctly.

I asked for the explanation of indirect pressure because I've never seen the term used here on this forum. So, I asked for the explanation in the interest of those who might not be familiar with the term and it's application. And, you are correct in suggesting that I have used indirect pressure without the collar. I use a rapid combination of sits, downs, stands in varying order with a stern, no-nonsense tone of voice to get the dogs attention. On a humorous note, I once threw in 'speak'. When I got a puny little 'woof' I said, "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"', just like my drill sergeant did in the Army. It was counter productive because I started laughing so hard the moment was lost

But, other than that instance, it works. If it doesn't, then the dog is probably quite confused about what you are asking - back to the drawing board.

Please continue...

Snick

[scotsgent]

Snick,

After reading and digesting the stuff in this excellent thread and also reading as much as I can get my hands on from other sources. I now understand MUCH better, your original point, (which I didn't then take much cognisance of, I admit) . Namely; that to 'meddle' with e-collar work without a thorough understanding of 'plain, good training technique' has the potential for disaster.

Thanks again for making this happen, it has been and continues to be most informative!

Cheers, Terry

[Martindeeley]

Thank you Snick, there was no offense taken. I was writing with a smile on my face. You are right; the foundation is always a good training approach andtrong relationship building. Good training does not mean just one approach or one piece of equipment for all. I have come across many trainers who make up one good dog and then can never find another. My thought is that happens because they only use one approach and do not adapt to the dog. Good trainers are flexible to the learning of their dogs. Good trainers with or without a collar will have a good dog.

However, in my opinion, A good trainer using the e-collar correctly can bring on an even better dog than without the e-collar. I am certain of that. Also ; A poor trainer applying the collar incorrectly and hoping for the best will create even more problems. Sometimes we are lucky but many times that is not the case.

One of the values of the e-collar is the ability to time a correction at any distance. Timing is important in training.

The e-collar is the most versatile and powerful tool I have ever used and that is both positive powerful and negative powerful. Hence you have to abide by all the good principles of dog training. It is not a short cut it is not magic. It is a tool and you are the trainer. I know I can train a dog to a high standard without the collar. Done it on many occasions but I also know I can train a dog even better with the e-collar and more important I can then pass this dog over to another owner. This is particularly useful with companion pet dogs, and with guidance, once I have trained the dog for two weeks in basics, an owner can take over the control very easily with the way I use the-collar – and not be abusive. The use of the collar for companion dogs these days is of great value.

At teh end of the day we all have the right to choose. But lets do it right whichever method we use.

Martin

[cornishman]

Martin i was aked the other day on a shoot how to stop a dog whining, this guy had a lovely springer with lots of fizz when working ,but he cannot trial it because of the whining. This problem has been asked about many times on this forum , is there a sensitive solution useing the e collar other than just keep tapping the dog every time it whines in the hope it will stop Brian

[trekmoor]

I have a thing I do and which I also teach to those people who have come to me for training. It seems to work in a similar manner to giving a dog a "tap" with an e- collar . It is useless trying to direct a dog sitting at a distance unless that dog is concentrating on its handler rather than on where it wants to go next.

I sit my dogs then throw to begin with just one dummy off to one side of the dog. The dog will want to go for it but it does not get sent until after I have blown the stop whistle even though the dog is already sitting - a stop whistle does not mean stop - it means stop and look at me. The reward for looking at me in response to the whistle is an immediate send for the dummy. Over time the send for the retrieve is delayed more and more after the whistle is blown but the dog will continue to look at me.
When I have that then I continue by introducing more than one dummy but by then my dogs are fully concentrating on me waiting to see which of the rewards - the dummies - I will send them for.

I see a similarity to the tap method in this but it is purely reward based.

If I have a very young puppy then I don't train it that a stop whistle means sit to begin with. I train it that the whistle means "look at me for I am about to throw something for you." If this is done in a certain way with the pup moving around within about 20 feet from the trainer then the pup will immediately whip itself around to look at me the instant it hears the whistle for it wants to see the dummy flying through the air in order to run in for it.

By sometimes throwing the dummy to one side or the other of the pup and sometimes throwing it right over its head ,the pup teaches itself to stop and look at me but to stay right where it is because it doesn't know which way the dummy will go. I use my right arm to throw to the right and my left to the left. By doing this the pup also learns arm signals at the same time it is learning to stop and look at me. The sit is tagged on later.

This method is dependent on having a pup that loves retrieving which is one of the reasons why I try to always pick a pup that really likes retrieving. I develop the retrieve instinct before I begin with this form of training. The pup teaches itself with no form of force or correction used whatsoever.
Then over a long period of time - at least many weeks if not months , I build on what I already have.
I know this way of doing things wouldn't suit a busy pro trainer but for an old geezer like myself it saves me an awful lot of running about pressing a pups bottom down !
If I have a problem at all it is usually that my pups won't take their eyes off me !

Sorry for this red herring in your thread Martin but in my mind I can see a connection with my repeat of the sit whistle method and your "tap."

Wullie

[scotsgent]

I've just seen a user survey of e-collars on a USA site, with folks contributing from the swamps of Louisiana to the frozen winter wastes of Minnisota.

Heres the rough concensus:

Sportdog do good quality collars that perform well (they are available in the UK).

The top two in terms of features and reputation are Tri-tronics and Dogtra (more or less equal top in the survey).

It seems that the only way you will get a Tri-tronics e-collar here is to have a friend returning from the USA to buy one for you and bring it back in a suitcase. However, any servicing issues would then be a problem.

The Dogtra units are available here in the UK.

So, on balance, if you want a good e-collar here in the UK at the keenest price, then a Sportdog unit will do the job, you will have a guarantee and it can be serviced here. There are a couple of places selling 'ex-demonstration' models at keen prices, with a guarantee.

If you want the best available in the UK, then your choice would be Dogtra and again, they have a UK guarantee and can be serviced here.

The difference between a new Sportdog and Dogtra model is around £55. Though this comparison is with the Sportdog Sporthunter 800 meter version and the Dogtra 300 meter 410 ncp (but maybe the 300 meter would be enough, though remember, the range can be halved by environmental factors). Dogtra do quite a range of models and you can get a half-mile version, though these then starts to cost.

Cheers, Terry

[Martindeeley]

Whining is a big problem. Rarely have I felt totally confident that I have cured it. It is fraught with danger, as many times the dog does not associate it with the whining but something else. There is a Tritronics bark collar that often is sensitive enough to pick up whining and the timing is then perfect, and the association seems more positive. But I would never put my money n stopping whining once it has started. Often inherited but usually created through a lack of balance between control and drive, it is a pig to cure.

As for the positive way of stopping, sitting and looking at you on the whistle. This is my main way of teaching the sit and look at me at a distance. I don’t use the e-collar initially for this. June Atkinson of Holway fame who I trained with regularly at one time would do this with tennis balls in the same way although she did not concern herself about sitting as long as they looked at her. I think I talk about doing it this way in Working Gundogs. Thanks for explaining it Wullie, not a red herring at all. It is training. And that reminds me on whining. Junes Golden’s as puppies and when training would often give a little whine. Then when she took them to work or in a trial they never did it. I asked her one day how she stopped them. “I just tell them not to” she explained with a smile. She was a special trainer with those dogs, she had her own way and boy did it work. Happy memories of fun days.
Martin