I started a different thread as this is not just about docked breeds but all breeds of dog/puppy and about theft protection/ permanent id. I felt the OP on finding a docking vet had been hijacked enough already!
Canburne wrote:Hi Vicky,
what is your experience of chips that have 'seriously' moved and those that have failed? My personal experience is that one dog's chip has moved into his shoulder and that of seven dogs who were chipped at the same time two failed and that despite extensive x-raying no trace of either chip was found so both had to be replaced.
PERSONALLY I have not had many migrations or failures that I am aware of. I can think of only one failure at my husbands practice in the last 3years (ina nurses dog!) and we chip everything at second vac and see tham back yearly for scanning when they get jabbed. The last data I had showed that some brands of chip have a much higher migration rate than others (but it was anonymous data!) and older chips had a higher rate than the newer ones. Small chips have a lower migration rate and the best now have etching or a special collar which encourages the chip to bond to the subcut fat. I did see a case where a chip migrated where the pup was picked up by the scruff on the day of implantation and others which have moved after dogs were attacked around the neck. Most migrations are relatively local (ie the chip can still be read over the shoulders and the chip is not palpable/visible). Some apparant migrations are caused if the chip reads more easily from further away; I have seen xrays of dogs where the owner has been told the chip has moved only to see it just where it's meant to be! (Xrayed for other purposes). If the chip is not present this indicates poor implanter technique; ie failing to ensure the chip was implanted under the skin. It is easily done and if the chip is sitting in the skin or on the coat it will initially read as if implanted correctly and then fall out of the coat or be expelled from the skin. The implantation technique is critical; the chip must go between the shoulder blades as these provide a 'buffer' in the first few days as the chip gets bonded to the dog. When the docking law was being written the govt. wanted pups chipped at the time of docking. The microchip advisory group got this raised to 12weeks as they felt the risk of spinal damage and migration was too high in 2-3day old dogs due to their lack of subcut fat. This has got me thinking that certain breeds (HPR's, whippets etc) may benefit from slightly later chipping and may explain why I have seen more migrated chips in thin skinned/low fat breeds than in others. My personal experience has been that puppies chipped between 6and 8weeks in their home environment are far less likely to vocalise than those done in the clinic at 10-12weeks. This may be because the clinic dogs have previously had vaccinations (a possible 'bad' experience with a sharp thing) or because they are already 'on edge' due to the car journey and being in vet clinic. There is always a squealer in a litter though; usually the last boy puppy!
I think it is a shame that the docking legislation didn't allow tattooing as an ID option for those who do that anyway, perhaps with the condition that a chip was added later. This would have allowed more flexibility while still offering the maximum protection against fraud. But there you go....I didn't make the law!
I will add; if you have problems with chips PLEASE report them! The MAg collects data but this is only as good as what is supplied. If you don't tell your implanter or vet they can't tell the chip company and improvements or changes to recommendations can't be made. I'll post link later.
I think you have agreed with some of my statements Vicky ie movement and spinal damage and as I said early becasue of these reasons I see no good reason to have a dog chipped at such an early age. I also cannot see how vets who know there is a possibility of spinal damage, chip pups be they docked or not docked before 12 weeks, or if not docked before they are 6 months.
I do have to say I have had puppies scream even when chipped at home
Thankfully my vets agree and when they have chipped them we have had no screams
Here is a link to the Microchip Advisory Group including forms for reporting adverse reactions. It helps if you have as much information about the chip as possible so the vet/ implanter can fill out the form with as much data as possible for the MAG.
The PDF on implant technique is particularly interesting and points out some of the common 'mistakes' which lead to lost or moved chips.
I think you have agreed with some of my statements Vicky ie movement and spinal damage
The MAG felt there was an increased risk of migration or spinal damage at 2-3 DAYS. They do not feel there is a risk at 6weeks over implantation at any other age. Personal communication with the then chair of the MAG and The Dogs Trust indicated 3 or 4 cases in total of spinal damage over the years they had been collecting data.
i think it is important not to overstate the risk of a safe, effective proceedure although, yes, everything we do to our dogs has risks as well as benefits and people must do what they feel is best, within any laws and guided by scientific data where available.
I notice one poster does DNA profiles too; the ultimate Id as it can never be changed! One lab was offering profiling at the same time as bloods for pet passports but the cost then seemed very steep. How much does the inital profile cost and how much is it to 'prove' your pet is who they are meant to be? How long does it take?
All my pups are chipped at 8 weeks. I haven't encountered any problems so far. I buy the smallest chips available as I understand these are least likely to migrate.
I offer free scanning of microchips for any dogs which are brought to me for lessons, or to visit a stud dog.
I had a couple of litters tattood in the past, both done by different tattooists, but I found the results very unsatisfactory and you could hardly read the tattoo by the time was 2yrs old.
All my dogs arfe DNA profiled, the last one cost me £25 from the KC.
II notice one poster does DNA profiles too; the ultimate Id as it can never be changed! One lab was offering profiling at the same time as bloods for pet passports but the cost then seemed very steep. How much does the inital profile cost and how much is it to 'prove' your pet is who they are meant to be? How long does it take?
This is the link to DNA profiling on the KC site ... it costs £15
Nothing to do with dogs but I used to work for the Medical Research Council and remember in the early 80's, over 30 years ago now how time flies, being asked along with others in a corridor at Mill Hill, to do a cheek swab for DNA profiling, I think it was in it's infancy around that time and there were large gaps in the human genone project, it's certainly moved on since then
added later looking at the link the sample I gave must have been when DNA study and profiling was still in it's infancy..................even before the Human Genome Project got off the ground
Last edited by MTS on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Breezybrook wrote:All my pups are chipped at 8 weeks. I haven't encountered any problems so far. I buy the smallest chips available as I understand these are least likely to migrate.
I offer free scanning of microchips for any dogs which are brought to me for lessons, or to visit a stud dog.
I had a couple of litters tattood in the past, both done by different tattooists, but I found the results very unsatisfactory and you could hardly read the tattoo by the time was 2yrs old.
All my dogs arfe DNA profiled, the last one cost me £25 from the KC.
I was going to have Tallie tattooed but after what you said Jacquie that they have faded and you can hardly read it I didn't bother to get her done, it could be that having more hair on the inside ear makes a difference as on shorthaired not such a problem.
vicky payne wrote:Thanks Fiona, £15 seems a bargain price too....maybe I'll add profiling to my paranoid dog Id collection! Dogs...prepare to be swabbed!
The price has gone up to £25.
It still says £15 on the link given but it is £25 on the request form, it went up over a year ago.
... on the other hand I don't remember very much of anything 
