Gundog Training Forum

Naj wrote:People thought that they were using psychology when they stuck to the alpha/packleader mind-set but, as has been described, it was based on observation in a captive, disparate group of wolves that had been thrown together, which is totally different to a pack in the wild. It is also totally different to how domestic dogs behave & interact. In Edwardian/Victorian times I think it also sat well with the notion that we are 'masters of all we survey etc' . The tradition was set & our traditional gundog training is still based on the same false concept that gave rise to compulsive & punishment based methods. Traditionalists still cling on to a belief in being the alpha, because then it justifies any punishment meted out to the dog ... "because that is what the pack leader would do!"

Naj

The "Pack leader" doesnt punish, its the plebs that fight with each other to try and make themselves look better, and at the end of the day if it was so I wouldnt want any dog of mine to see me as a pack leader in a way they come creeping to look for for approval or the other way the lower arcy does. I see my self as equals with my dogs and treat them like children, right or wrong who knows but never ever do I ever think them of anything other than my baby's/friends/companions and saviours. After all they have taught me far more than Ill ever be able to teach them.

Think we agree on this.

Coming from a pet and obedience side of things, as well as the work I have done with gundog training - you cannot force a dog to do anything and expect them to like you. Dogs do know we're a different species so trying to act like them is ridiculous. My dogs do things for me because they enjoy it, if they don't want to do things they aren't forced (unless I am late for work and Benjie is faffing around and not coming in - he is leashed and walked inside).

My dogs did start off as "whats in it for me" but now they are like "Oh I know this..I can do this" and they work for praise, an ear scratch and treats - either together or separate.
I have tried the whole pack leader thing (I was naive! and a fan of CM until I learned about E-collars etc) with Benjie and I have just started re-gaining his trust in me. I tried for months to get him to not lunge at dogs whilst on/off lead with the pack leader method - but I have gotten so far (granted took twice the time) with the upping confidence and doing things in a positive way and I finally got to walk him offlead around other dogs (muzzled though) and he didn't lunged, growl, anything he did 3 years ago when I met him and started working with him! My dogs are allowed to eat before us, walk out the door before me (not always) get on the furniture - everything the pack theory says not too, but if I say off or wait - they do and we've had no issues.

I think with the Alpha theory, you get people mixing up behaviours, what is nervous aggression comes across as dominance - can do I should say. This is what Benjie is, he has nerves, was probably never socialised as a pup and was rescued by people who know nothing about dog behaviour so kept him away and lived with his aggression. I thought it was dominance but then his nerves came through - he has taught me so much about dog behaviour!

Sorry I'm rambling. I don't agree with the pack theory - thats my conclusion

I was once told by a gundog trainer, in a group lesson, to take my hands out of my pockets. This pee’d me off at the time. But now, I understand that body language and attitude are important – and that doesn’t mean playing macho, being a bully or a control freak.

“Emotional intelligence”, yet another buzz phrase, may well achieve as good as, or better, results than the wolf, dominance and dog psychology theories.

One “style” I don’t pretend to understand is “reward the good, ignore the bad”.

spaceman wrote:
One “style” I don’t pretend to understand is “reward the good, ignore the bad”.

Me neither, if the dog finds the thing rewarding they will continue to do it as long as you continue to ignore it regardless of whether it's a wanted behaviour or not.

It would depend, I suppose, on whether the reward for good behaviour outweighed in the dogs mind the reward of the bad behaviour ?

Thing is, can the trainer somehow make the reward for good behaviour valuable enough to overcome the reward of the bad ? I know that I cannot always manage to do this.

Wullie

trekmoor wrote:It would depend, I suppose, on whether the reward for good behaviour outweighed in the dogs mind the reward of the bad behaviour ?

Thing is, can the trainer somehow make the reward for good behaviour valuable enough to overcome the reward of the bad ? I know that I cannot always manage to do this.

That’s interesting - could you give some examples of where you find “ignoring the bad” does, and doesn’t, work please?

Does repeatedly luring or distracting a dog away from an unwanted behaviour, with something more rewarding, teach the dog that doing the self rewarding “bad” thing is a precursor for something even better? Isn’t this directly associating the “bad” with the “good”?

Shouldn’t the dog be asked to do an unrewarded “good” thing that is less rewarding to the dog than the “bad” thing, as a precursor for a high value good thing?

Premack theory makes some sense to me – and I suppose it’s something a dog savvy owner puts into practice even if they haven’t read up on the theory!

Do owners following the “ignore the bad” training style actually teach or use the command “no”, and, if so, how? By treating the dog when it stops doing the unwanted behaviour?

I'm too dim to understand all the various theories but I do know that every dog I own would prefer to chase a rabbit than to eat a treat or chase a tennis ball. If I ignored rabbit chases my dogs would keep right on chasing them....... I don't think they'd make very good gundogs if they did not !

As my old mentor said to me back when the world was young..... "I wouldn't give you tuppence for a dog that never tried to run in." He was talking about labs and retrieving but it's the same idea ....... only the non-keen labs would never try to run in and only non keen spaniels would never try to chase.

Ignoring bad or unwanted behaviours sometimes works when ,for example, a pup returns with a retrieve object but then drops it near you. If the pup is accustomed to receiving praise from you for coming all the way in first just as a recall and then as a retrieve then turning away from the pup and saying nothing when it drops the article may cause the pup to do a bit of that "free-shaping" stuff the clicker works well for. The pup wants the reward, the praise it is accustomed to, so it may try to get it by re-picking the article.
In my experience this does not always work but I find it worth a try.

Wullie

spaceman wrote:I was once told by a gundog trainer, in a group lesson, to take my hands out of my pockets. This pee’d me off at the time. But now, I understand that body language and attitude are important – and that doesn’t mean playing macho, being a bully or a control freak.

“Emotional intelligence”, yet another buzz phrase, may well achieve as good as, or better, results than the wolf, dominance and dog psychology theories.

One “style” I don’t pretend to understand is “reward the good, ignore the bad”.

Some of our top spaniel trainers act very casually when handling a dog in a trial. Oppenshaw certainly used to stroll about with his hands in his pockets when hunting his dogs. Having your hands out of your pockets has nothing to do with your ability to effectively handle a dog, in fact the casual approach will do more to relax your dog than if you look on edge & ready for action, so to speak.

Naj

I believe up north its called or was called the swagger.