Gundog Training Forum

Wendy M wrote:I’d be interested to know how many people use the same cue to send their dog out on a blind from their side and to send it on again as a redirection after stopping it, or how many use two separate cues, one to send it from their side and another to send it on again as a redirection?

If you are using one cue i.e. “Back” in both instances this would mean the behavior you are asking of the dog is to “go out from me in a straight line.”

If you are using two, the cue from your side would mean “go out from me in a straight line” where as the redirectional cue would mean “turn round and take a straight line back”

I guess it doesn’t much matter as long as the dog understands what you want.

But does anyone have any thoughts on advantages/disadvantages of using one cue over two or vice versa?

I've come unstuck with just this in the last week or so. With the only dogs I've had that actually will handle (they're improving as I learn) , I've used "get out" to send them from my side and when I've stopped them and they're facing me, I'll use "back" to spin them around 180 degrees and send them out further.

The young dog, I've managed to confuse. Having just almost got her steady to dummies I've been trying to do a bit of handling with her. She's mastered "get out" from my side, that was easy (but the wee bugger's started anticipating it now). She can sit 10 yards in front of me and do basic Left and Right arm signals with a verbal "Get on" as long as it's without the distraction of a second dummy. Blinds are a complete unknown to her at the moment.

When I've sat her up on bare ground facing me with a dummy behind her in full view and tried to send her for it, she won't go. She definately knows it's there but won't go on either "Back" as the word that comes easily to me, or on "Get out" and the arm signal means nothing to her. I'm stuck for the moment and didn't want to confuse things more by trying the same thing continually just so I could work out where I've gone wrong. Maybe I've overdone the steadiness but I'm afraid to undo it now? Maybe I should ditch "Get out" and retrain her to "Back? I think I'll sort out the anticipation of being sent from my side for now and come back to the other problem later.

Get out and get on is way too similar to use in the same situation for my taste. Try it yourself, pretend you are a dog and let someone direct you..

Take the word "get" out of the equation...been there got that Tshirt...

Rascal

Try dropping the steadiness Rookie you’ll get it back again, sit her in front of you facing you do an over arm throw over her head and let her run in on it. Once she does that reliably put your chosen cue word on the over arm throw and then build the steadiness back in. She should then get the picture of the cue word and hand signal for going back from a sitting position. Then you can build it up to memories and blinds out behind her.

Rascal

Rookie wrote:[
The young dog, I've managed to confuse. Having just almost got her steady to dummies I've been trying to do a bit of handling with her. She's mastered "get out" from my side, that was easy (but the wee bugger's started anticipating it now). She can sit 10 yards in front of me and do basic Left and Right arm signals with a verbal "Get on" as long as it's without the distraction of a second dummy. Blinds are a complete unknown to her at the moment.

When I've sat her up on bare ground facing me with a dummy behind her in full view and tried to send her for it, she won't go. She definately knows it's there but won't go on either "Back" as the word that comes easily to me, or on "Get out" and the arm signal means nothing to her. I'm stuck for the moment and didn't want to confuse things more by trying the same thing continually just so I could work out where I've gone wrong. Maybe I've overdone the steadiness but I'm afraid to undo it now? Maybe I should ditch "Get out" and retrain her to "Back? I think I'll sort out the anticipation of being sent from my side for now and come back to the other problem later.

The words mean nothing. If you 'steady' the dog first, properly & sensitively, it shouldn't be an inhibition to the dog. Then you will be able to sit her & 'teach' her what you expect from the 'back' command by tossing a dummy over her head & sending her back for it. You could start throwing the dummy almost at her side & gradually take a step backwards as she progresses if the dog is slow on the uptake. There are other ways but until your dog is steady you will find it complicated to teach handling at distance.

And it would be better to stick to a plan & follow it through. A dog is steady or it isn't, it is never 'almost steady'. She hasn't 'mastered get-out from your side' until she will do it 'blind'. She hasn't mastered basic left & rights until she can do them under distraction. If she can't do all of these things on marks, then she isn't ready for blinds. Sometimes, if you slow things down & do them thoroughly, you will get there faster.

Naj

I use 'back' for any running away from me in a straight line. I use 'out' for left or right with a hand singal. But as has been said, you can use whatever you like if you are consistent. Personlly I'd only use wo commands if the dog seemed confused by using he same word for by your side and at a distance.

Rascal wrote:Try dropping the steadiness Rookie you’ll get it back again, sit her in front of you facing you do an over arm throw over her head and let her run in on it. Once she does that reliably put your chosen cue word on the over arm throw and then build the steadiness back in. She should then get the picture of the cue word and hand signal for going back from a sitting position. Then you can build it up to memories and blinds out behind her.

Rascal

I don't mind unsteady dogs &/or dropping the steadiness to push through a training issue, but I wouldn't erode the drop command by abusing it in this way

Naj

I nearly posted this last night then changed my mind as it was sort of off track, but my way of dealing with this would be put a ball out blind sit the he dog up infront of you with its back to the blind, then rebuild the chain you want to achieve by a) stop whistle (even though the dogs stitting you want stop to be associated with being given direction) b) give the dog the back hand signal pushing your hand up (which is also going to have a ball in it) say back and throw the ball over its head and let it go straight away. (the push back should be sort of like a basketball/netball shot and making this a throw shouldnt be a problem.. yes this will mean there are two balls out there but youre in control of exactly where you throw it and the dog is going to be focused on the thrown ball. c) do same again. d) finally sit the dog up do the same without the ball. having had the success from turning and going back Id wager the dog will do the same again and should then find the 3rd ball. at this point stop and put the dog away. 10 mins later get it out again and repeat with one thrown and two 'blind'. then the next day to one and then 2 and move onto 3 blind. set it up so the dog cant fail and it wont, once its turning back you can then start to build up the distance of the backs with a different exercise. this way youre not wrecking steadyness...your giving the dog a clear instruction along with incentive to get it right ....all just my opinion of course.

This has turned into the old GCSE question

E=Mc2 - discuss.

To me it takes a quantum leap to be able to see the situations where I would use the two commands as one command.

I use 'back' for any running away from me in a straight line. I use 'out' for left or right with a hand singal. But as has been said, you can use whatever you like if you are consistent. Personlly I'd only use wo commands if the dog seemed confused by using he same word for by your side and at a distance.

Snap