Interesting article?

[Bryn]

Agree firm but fair and consistent. Cruelty is cruelty no matter what excuse is given, even training collies in my early teens I wouldn't have contemplated some of the things I've read about . Now in late middle age and training my first gundog I'm a lot softer, I started out trying to stick to positive only, this worked reasonably up until about 4 months then his hormones started to kick in he got more self-aware and positive only just doesn't cut it in all situations, so whether its a growl, "NO!!", simply putting him where he should be things have changed slightly. Eventually I want a dog that can think for itself, that I can trust to get on with it's job without constant input from me, this is what we trained our collies to, with that I accept that until he has built up experience he's going to get things wrong. What I don't want is a robot dog that has to have step by step commands to cock its leg.

And yes Bryn can be shit at KC class, - indoors, stuff he can do in his sleep and lots of other dogs/people is just too much for him, surprisingly everyone else reckons he's the best trained dog there. Think Bronze will be as far as we go.

[Andrew]

That's the whole problem with these type of threads, training is easy, it's correction that's the problem and nearly every time its heel work and steadiness, the stuff that should have sorted out long long ago.

[Judy]

Heel work and steadiness are more about how you live with the dog than how you train it.

Discuss.

[shootingstu]

Interesting article also very interesting discussion

[Nonehpets]

on the advice of the gundog trainer, for consistency, we were told OH handles Bryn, you handle Poppy

I can understand from the trainer's point of view it needs one consistent trainer/handler per dog BUT from a day to day living perspective part of that training is for the dog to do what he is told, by whomever (in his household at least) he is told, when he is told. So perhaps part of your generalisation once something is learned is for the other to handle - being strictly consistent to what has been trained and not what you might have trained? Whether you keep taking Bryn to those classes or not he still needs to do what he is told by either of you?

It's alright saying no, but the word loses its effect.

I find using a very low pitched, fairly quiet but clearly displeased/disappointed sounding (think human growling) statement of dog's name is very effective as a disruptor around the house and a quite loud and stern "Agh Agh" when we are out and about - neither get used constantly but get held in reserve for priority correction. This means "No" remains in the toolbox as a command or cue instead of punishment.

In general about the article - Bonking? I see what the author is saying but well maybe I don't want to throw a dummy shaped missile (rolled up towel) at my gundog as punishment/correction so I will stick with my training discs (thrown to ground not dog). I have no issue with punishment as part of a training regime - but only when it is needed, at the lowest level to be effective and delivered without anger. How do we reduce the amounts of punishment needed? set very clear boundaries and be consistent in having the dog stay within them while it learns.

Cathy

[Andrew]

Heel work and steadiness are more about how you live with the dog than how you train it.

Discuss.

My response was to the post before, didn't realise another had been slipped in.

Steadiness covers a whole range of things from patience to not running in. if more time was spent on that then perhaps less time would need to spent on correction. the degree of correction would equate to the degree of commitment spent on the basic lessons.

Peoples thinking in most cases has changed for the better and in most cases I can accept that, but the gundog has been bred to display certain attributes and they remain as they always have until they are channelled to do our bidding.

Some do this very well some don't. if training lapses then so will the dog and you loose the basic steadiness and control! if you didn't have the basic steadiness and control then something somewhere was or is lacking.

[Judy]

Going back to something Natasha said, we struggle with people's perception of us anyway due in part to the very anti gun stance in the media, anything which smacks of shooting or guns in any way shape or form is considered awful in some quarters. We do not need to feed that image by lousy, force, bully, training anywhere, never mind in a demo or in a public situation such as a Test or Trial. I'm not sure why its considered normal to train in this way, I have books on my shelves which describe gentle non aggressive methods of training back in the late 1800's so why is there still an element of I say you do whether you understand or not in gundog training?

Anyway, having got that orff me chest, I can't condone the opposite extreme either, dogs are dogs, capable of thought in some small way and do let themselves get carried away by the moment, to ignore that behaviour and hope it will go away is nonsense, an "ah ah!!" or a short sharp "no!" at the right time is necessary and, with some dogs, a face to face discussion regarding their misdemeanours becomes necessary. Don't be afraid to tick them off but equally, make sure the dog knows what it is they have done wrong otherwise you are destroying a beautiful friendship. Also don't nag, they don't like it anymore than we do!

Remember when they do right a bit of praise is due, I see soo many people struggling with their dogs partly because they tell the dog to do something like go to its bed then, when said dog has laid down it gets totally ignored, what's the reward in that? The dog simply gets up and goes back to whatever it was doing before. Being old and cantankerous I find myself saying ''good dog" at all sorts of odd moments and I don't always have one of my own with me!

[Nellie]

on the advice of the gundog trainer, for consistency, we were told OH handles Bryn, you handle Poppy

I can understand from the trainer's point of view it needs one consistent trainer/handler per dog BUT from a day to day living perspective part of that training is for the dog to do what he is told, by whomever (in his household at least) he is told, when he is told. So perhaps part of your generalisation once something is learned is for the other to handle - being strictly consistent to what has been trained and not what you might have trained? Whether you keep taking Bryn to those classes or not he still needs to do what he is told by either of you?

Cathy

Generally, that's what I would have thought - I understand the trainer's point about consistency - but as you say, if I'm not allowed to train or do anything with him, then as per pup classes where I'm expected to get Bryn to do something, he won't, because of that. I deferred to the trainer's advice as he was highly recommended and I've never owned a dog before. So for day to day living, if trainer says no don't do that, and then OH will tell me no if I try to discipline the dog, then how am I supposed to get round it, when the pup starts acting up?

[trekmoor]

You and the O.H. will have to begin to sing from the same Hymn sheet.

Wullie

[Nonehpets]

Nellie (and Bryn prick your ears up too) I don't wish to jinx anything but what if ...

Last year my Dad had to stay in hospital over the weekend after a wee stroke - he is the kennel hand in their house and Mum rarely interacts with the dogs out in the kennels. I went over and helped out - their dogs are used to me and it gave them a little bit of normal until their master returned. I use a different training style to my Dad but his dogs mind me and mine mind him. I didn't undo anything they know but I also didn't have delinquent dogs on my hands.

It is great that you have such faith in your gundog trainer - but who lives with the dogs 24/7?

Cathy