reflections and redirections

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trekmoor
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by trekmoor »

Maybe Charlie, my grandfather certainly was. He knew bog-all about gundogs but he knew a lot about lurchers ! :lol: He'd travelled Britain in a horse and caravan following the first world war and was sort of "in" with the travelling people. He subsidised his dogs catches by doing illegal bare knuckle boxing matches. He was a big, big bugger of a man and most of his many children both lawful and illegitimate not only respected him , they feared him. I got on very well with him just as soon as he noted my interest in things like rabbit snaring and training dogs. I think he also liked the way I would fight at the drop of a pin ! :roll:
Other family members may not have liked him much but I did. It was he who squashed my mothers and fathers objections to me having my first dog at 14 years old. He let me keep her at his house just a couple of hundred yards along the road. His stipulations for her remaining in his house were that she was entirely my responsibility.
I was to feed her , I was to clean up any mess she made, I was to take her out early morning, noon, lunchtime from school, late afternoon and in the evening. I was to train her and he would check to see how she was doing. I kept my word and he kept his and we got on great. He told me tales of living with the travelling people that just about curdled my blood ....if they were true but I never caught him out with a lie. He hated lying or so my mother told me, she'd had her ass whacked for it with his cut-throat razor strop ! :lol:
I always regretted that I hadn't known my grandfather as a still active man. The furthest I ever went with him from his house in Gorgie was to the bowling club. He sat me on his knee when I was still very young and let me drink the foam off the top of his pint of beer. I can still remember him pulling me away from the glass while laughing and saying , "Just the foam, ye wee bugger ! Just the foam !" .....Happy memories ! :lol:
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My young border collie had won the Pre-Beginners test at the dog show but trouble loomed ahead for no matter what article I tried him with he would not even touch it far less pick it up and retrieve it. If I were to continue as a competition obedience man then somehow he just had to retrieve and retrieve very well and very "accurately" with a perfect sitting present.
The bloke then the head trainer of the obedience club was able to read people very well. He could not tell me how to get my dog to retrieve but he knew exactly which buttons to push to get me to train the dog to retrieve. He goaded me unmercifully at every opportunity that I and my "wonder dog" had come to the end of the line. I seethed quietly and barely restrained myself from dotting his nose !

I am one of those weird people who do better when angry or under pressure ....I even enjoyed exams at school and I loved fighting at school and out on the streets as a kid. I'd fight at the least hint of a challenge. With my oddball likings for things like "nature study" and reading and writing and even poetry and art, it was just as well I liked fighting too for my likings were not normal things for kids from my area of Edinburgh to put it mildly ! I got plenty of challenges.

With just a couple of weeks to go before the next obedience show I tried every trick and stratagem I could think of to get my dog to retrieve. The clubs head trainer goaded me again during a pub night out and this time I responded but not with a punch to his nose. I stepped up the pressure on myself by entering my dog for the next couple of levels up all in the one dog show.
One of those classes required a simple retrieve done well but the one above that, "Test A " I think it was called , required not only a retrieve of a dumbell but a scent discrimination search and retrieve too among several articles.
By the Friday just prior to the Saturday competition I still hadn't even got him to walk out to pick up an article. As a last resort I decided to try something I'd heard of but no more than that. All I knew about it was that there was a training method called the forced retrieve or F.F. for short. The Force Fetch is not a method I would use to train any gundog . It just does not suit me, I don't like to inflict pain on any animal or bird. I try to kill things when out shooting but, for me, that is my limit.

I knew nothing about how to train F.F. so I made up my own "method" and settled down on the Friday afternoon in the hallway of my house to train my dog by force. He was a very, very "tough" sort of dog and it was just as well that he was. I literally forced him out to the dumbell I tossed down the hall, forced him to bend his head to it and forced him to take it into his mouth. Then I forced him to keep pushing up against me all the way back up the hall with the dumbell in his mouth. It was nothing like the ways in which I later read F.F.ing should be done.

I did not break it all down into a chain for the dog, it was hard on the dog and it was hard on me but by the end of the afternoon he was retrieving and doing an obedience style present with the dumbell. Now I wrapped a strip of rough cloth around the dumbell and had him retrieve that. Both the dumbell and the cloth now had my scent and his all over them. I removed the cloth from the dumbell and had him retrieve that on it's own. This was followed by a very quick try at doing the same things outdoors, I only did that a couple of times because if the behaviour pattern had broken down outdoors I could have done nothing about it in time for the show. I'd done as much as I could and certainly more than I should have....he was now ready for those obedience rings.
He did very well and won both his classes on that same Saturday. Even the scent discrimination and retrieve test went brilliantly. As the scent article I used the same strip of cloth he had previously retrieved. I ended up in a run-off for first place and the judge had us do another retrieve as the tie-breaker. My dog just beat the other dog with a better sit/present and I left the ring jubilant and wasted no time in crowing to my trainer who had been watching all this along with some other club members. No more jibes came my way from him and he was very complementary until my dog decided enough was enough of all this nonsense and made clear his feelings by peeing up and down my leg ! Every one around that I'd been bragging to just about collapsed laughing , it was funny. Dogs can't half bring you back down to earth with a bump .
He was the kind of dog I like, he had a lot of character.
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To be continued
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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urzzzzz20
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by urzzzzz20 »

This is great, a fantastic read.
trekmoor
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by trekmoor »

I had now won at Test A level and began to train for Test B and C. Part of this training was for the "Sendaway" exercise. I'd never seen this exercise previously but it almost at once struck me that the idea behind it could be applied to training gundogs for blind retrieves. Just a few years later when I'd begun to train labs for tests and trials, a few now very well known trialers, one of whom has won the retriever championships twice , asked me how I got dogs to run out so straight and hardly ever needed to correct the outrun to blinds. The answer was a modified sendaway.

My dog did well and did some more winning too but although I had by now been voted in at the A.G.M. as the clubs new trainer, I was beginning to become bored with training obedience just for the sake of obedience. For a slash and burn sort of person like me it was too "nit-picky" too inhibiting to both me and my dog, too much of the same thing repeated time after time.
I judged obedience competitions up to Test C but although it takes a lot of thought and a lot of concentration to judge obedience fairly and well , I found that boring too and began to hope I wouldn't be asked to judge again.

I began to take my collie out shooting with one or two friends I had now made. He made a pretty good gundog and with only a bit of directional training needing to be taught plus getting him used to being obedient around game and retrieving first cold game and then fresh shot, it didn't take long to turn him into a useful dog.
His retrieving was excellent and it was done very keenly. Don't let anyone tell you that a dog that needed to be trained using F.F. will not retrieve with great enthusiasm ....it just isn't true ! It is partly for this reason that I will never train my own or anyone elses gundogs using F.F.
Think what could happen to the inherited instinct to retrieve if just a few springers for example were non-retrievers or damn near to being non-retrievers. If those dogs were to be well trained by F.F. and then win trials , is it not likely that they would be used fairly heavily at stud ? They could pass on a non-retrieving gene of some sort to a high percentage of Britains springers.

I was contemplating ceasing to do obedience competitions so I took a look at Working Trials , the police dog sort of stuff. It seemed just about as bad as Obedience for being inhibiting . I like to leave my dogs with a lot of initiative and initiative is the kiss of death in an obedience competition. Working Trials didn't seem to be a whole lot better ... I did a bit of it in practice sessions but it had very little appeal for me.

Things changed for me again and forced another change of direction. My dog attacked an old ladies dog that was on the lead at the time. He went to it to attack it out on the street. I will not tolerate an aggressive dog no matter if it is great friends with it's own cuddly puppy or kitten. I would not tolerate the best working gundog in the world being aggressive. I took him to the vets and had him put down.

A friend knew I was now dogless and he wanted a companion to go shooting and maybe beating with. He had a springer pup I'd been helping him to train as a gundog. His dog was BIG , he was entirely work bred but was easily as big as a show springer..... more about that later ....if I remember !
My mate got hold of a work bred springer rescue pup of about 8 months old for me and I was back to training gundogs. I never set foot inside an Obedience ring again. I greatly prefer all the uncertainties that working dogs on game thrusts at me and at dogs. It is this that those who compete often very successfully in gundog tests but who rarely ,if ever, work their dogs on game, fail to understand. It can only be be game that shows you if a dog will trash itself among very nasty cover or not in it's efforts to flush it or to retrieve it.
It is only game that will provide the ultimate proof that a dog is steady and is soft mouthed and it is only game that gives real proof of a dogs game finding ability. It is very easy to run a very "hot" dog in tests and keep it steady to dummies of all sorts and to have it handle very well on blinds etc. The mistake some unknowing test trainers make is to assume that same dog would behave well during a trial !
I have always had and liked "hot" dogs....maybe that is why I won an awful lot of tests with them but only a dozen or so trials !???
.......................................................................
To be continued
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
trekmoor
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by trekmoor »

I received by P.M. today a nice note asking me to continue with "Reflections and Redirections" so here goes. I'd forgotten all about it ......it's an "age" thing !
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My new gundog was a springer spaniel pup of about 8 months old and of uncertain ancestry. He was a rescue pup who'd been got rid off when his pet dog owners found him becoming too much to control. I think he was of gundog breeding but probably not top drawer stuff.
I found him fairly easy to train and a friend with a car and a springer pup of about 10 months old and I began to go out training together. That dog of his was his first ever gundog and at that time I was just about the only person his owner could go to with his dog training problems. I was capable of helping with the majority of his questions but not with them all for I'd never had dogs to test or trial standards myself.

Our first big problem was that neither of us had anywhere to go where there was any game . Our ambitions were very modest , we just wanted dogs we could take beating .....if we could find any beating ! My mate was a "middle of Edinburgh" man too and like me he had no contacts with shoots or with other gundog people. As many other people have found out it can be very difficult to get a start on shoots . Keepers like folk who can be vouched for by beaters or by pickers up they already know and keepers also like to employ people who have previous experience of doing the job ..... they like the dogs to be experienced too..... it's a vicious circle ....you can't get a start because you haven't got experience and you can't get experience because you can't get a start !

My mate and I set out to give our dogs some experience. We'd seen a few pheasants on a road not far outside Edinburgh , so having parked the car a few hundred yards away along the road, we walked back to the woods the birds seemed to be coming from.
We began to hunt our dogs in what we thought was "beating style" through the woods which ran in a sort of upturned "U" shape wth the road at it's base. Very few pheasants were in the wood but we were delighted with the ones our dogs flushed and did our best to control the chases !
We had done a large part of the woods when an enraged "Hoi you barstewards ! What the feck are you doing here ?" alerted us to the fact that the keeper had joined our hunt uninvited. He was a very large man and he was purple in the face with rage.
He'd brought reinforcements with him too. His wife was just behind him holding onto a big goat on a rope lead and the keeper himself was holding on to a large dobermann pinscher.
I was to discover later that the dobie was as soft as sh*t and wouldn't have bit down into a pound of mince but that the goat would attack strange dogs ...... I'm not sure what his wife was like in a fight !

We got our dogs back on the lead and the keeper raged at us for a good 5 minutes. All we could do was apologise profusely and claim ignorance of this being part of a shoot .....that was not a lie, we genuinely didn't know there was a shoot that close to Edinburgh. We explained what we had been trying to do with our dogs whenever we got a chance to between the keepers explosions of invective.....he had a very good vocabulary of swearie words and of gross personal insults.

Eventually, he told us to "F. off the feck" from his woods and never to come back .....or else. We slunk off back to the car but once we were back on the road on our walk to the car, along the road behind us came a land rover with the keepers big purple with anger face glaring at us from the open window.
He was back for another go at us but I had already apologised several times and wasn't about to apologise again or take any more insults directed my way. My own temper had begun to bubble.
The keeper did a pre-emptive strike by at once shouting at us, " Do you feckers really want to go beating ?" We said that we did. He then invited us onto his ground as beaters the following weekend !
It was my first chance to do some pukka beating and I jumped at it as did my mate. The shoot was a small but very enjoyable and very friendly one .... the keeper introduced us to to the other two beaters and to the guns as , " The two barstewards he had caught poaching during the week !" .....Everyone laughed and we were accepted with only a few further comments or questions.

My spaniel pup worked quite well that shoot day and I soon discovered that the worst dog on the shoot for going out of control, for chasing and for running-in was the keepers own springer ! My mates dog and my own were both angels by comparison with a couple of the dogs on that shoot.
I think we were given a tenner each as payment and then two of the guns came forward , pressed their shotguns and some cartridges into my hands and my mates and told us to bugger off to do some evening poaching/ flighting up at the pond for the ducks !

That keeper became a very good friend of mines, he did everything he could to help me and I got invites to beat at other shoots through him where he never failed to introduce me as "The fecker he'd caught poaching."
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To be continued.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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jeffD
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by jeffD »

Another great read :)
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Merlin
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by Merlin »

:clap:

I too was wondering whether you'd decided not to carry on and am very pleased you have..

:-D
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Tungulria
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by Tungulria »

Classic!! Cheered me up no end this morning to read this!
Megsdad
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by Megsdad »

I love a good yarn Mr Wullie. Keep them coming please. Terry
trekmoor
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by trekmoor »

Thanks folks ....here's the next bit.
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That winter with my spaniel pup was spent doing some beating and eventually some shooting for my mate and I now had two farms to shoot over. One farmer stipulated that we were only to shoot pigeons and crows while the other farmer also allowed us to shoot partridges, there were no pheasants on that second farm and very few rabbits on either of the two farms.
I did a lot of pigeon shooting over decoys but walking the ground on either farm produced not much at all. When spring arrived I went pigeon shooting one morning with my mate who ,so far, hadn't tried shooting from a hide over decoys. Neither of us knew much about pigeon decoying . About all I knew was that the decoys should be set up about 20-30 yards from the hide and that they should face more or less into the wind.

We set up our hides about 40 yards apart along a thick hedgeline with the decoys roughly equal in distance out from us and waited.
I shot at a pigeon and missed, my mate tried a shot at a couple and also missed and then we had a long wait until any more arrived close enough to shoot. I saw a pigeon come in towards my mate who fired both barrels and brought it down. All hell broke loose in his carefully constructed hide. His springer was a very big, old fashioned , strongly built sort of dog. He took off to get to the pigeon and took the hide with all it's sticks and netting and my mate with him ! I heard my mate's curses and commands as he issued them from the depths of the net which had folded around around him like a sack from which he found it very difficult to extricate himself.

I could see bits of him and bits of his spaniel from time to time as they engaged in a bit of cage fighting inside the net. Being of a kind and helpful sort of disposition I decided I should render some assistance and so I guffawed with laughter ! At that my own pup decided to join in the fun too so he ran in for the pigeon which quickly wiped the smile off my face.

My mate and I decided we needed some pro help and so we joined the local gundog club and a very good one it was back then too. It held training classes every Wednesday evening from about April to mid August and those classes cost absolutely nothing apart from the clubs initial joining fee.

I lapped up the info and the gundog "atmosphere." At last I was in with the in crowd. Much of the training was directed towards trials and tests and I liked that but my mate had little interest in either. I think he might have tried tests but for one thing. His dog ,which was anything but gun-shy with shotgun bangs, was frightened of launcher and starting pistol bangs.

Since then I have seen this same thing with several dogs .....or even with many dogs. I am very wary of taking a pup anywhere near launchers being fired off. Shotguns make a "bang" but dummy launchers make a "crack ."

A couple of the spaniel folk were about my own age and they were "into" trialing. I wanted to do trials too and was informed that it was essential to have my dog red hot but under control on rabbits.
I knew of a steep hillslope on the Pentland Hills where rabbits by the hundreds lived among the large patches of gorse that studded the sheep nibbled grassy slope. My pup and I set off by bus and by Shank's Pony to get there.
He took to rabbit hunting like a sailor on shore leave takes to pubs, brothels and other such salubrious places. He began fairly tentatively among the gorse bushes but soon began to trash them after he'd found and flushed and partially chased a few rabbits.
My head was full of Field Trial Winner fireworks going off and I walked along in bliss and in high hopes of glory. My euphoria didn't last for long. From deep inside one of the larger patches of gorse I heard a "woof" and then another one. He was getting frustrated because he could not push through the gorse fast enough in pursuit of the rabbits.

I took him further along the hillside to remove him from the scene of his crime but from then on he barked whenever he shifted a rabbit. He even found two pheasants in the gorse and saluted them with a bark too as they flew off. He'd never done that before but the rabbits had wound him up. My hopes of fame and glory were dashed , he had an eliminating fault that no judge could possibly miss.
I placed an advert in a newspaper, received a phone call from a potential buyer and told him over the phone exactly why I was selling my dog. We met in Glasgow after a train journey for me and a car trip of not very far for the buyer. The pup was instantly sold for the princely sum of , if I remember correctly, £25 .....it may have been less !

My final advice to his buyer was to keep him on a lead for a couple of days and not to take him shooting for at least a fortnight in order to give the dog time to get to know him. I then caught a train back to Edinburgh and then a bus in Edinburgh back home.
I'd scarcely had time to sit down with a cup of tea and a slightly guilty conscience for having sold on this pup when the phone rang.
It was his buyer who informed me he'd stopped off on his way home to take the dog shooting ! I at once assumed the worst and that the dog was lost and began to blister the man's ear with what I thought of him. The buyer interrupted my tirade to assure me that the dog was fine and that he was " a great" gundog.

Thinking that I'd made a big mistake and that the pup didn't bark at game after all I asked if he'd barked as I'd said he would when he flushed game from cover. " Yes !" said the buyer, " He barked like feck ! It's great ! He lets me know when something is going to come out so I can get ready to shoot it ! He's great !" I murmured my thanks for the phone call letting me know of my pup's "progress" and then put the phone down.
It can truly be said that there is a dog out there to suit everyone !
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to be continued.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
-----------------------------------------------------
Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
.
Rascal
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Re: reflections and redirections

Post by Rascal »

Now this would make a book Wullie.... :-D
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