getting cocker to give to hand

[trekmoor]

The supplementary guidance that covers the management of dogs also states that the dog should be trained through positive methods alone.

Naj

If that "guidance" was ever enforced there would be precious few working gundogs in the U.K. I have yet to see a well trained gundog that has only ever experienced positive methods. Quite a number of "pro-trainers" claim to use "positive only" in their advertising but the ones I have met do use some forms of physical compulsion. Simply keeping or placing a dog on a lead involves the use of physical restraint.

For me the use of F.F. in training is a step over the line in the sand that I do not want to step over but I did train retrieving with the use of F.F. almost 50 years ago. No matter how much I tried I could not persuade that particular dog , a border collie male, to retrieve or even to pick up any kind of article. I did make him into a very good and very keen retriever by training F.F. but I have no desire to ever do that to a dog again.

If I discovered that I really could not use only gentle persuasion to get a pup to retrieve now, I would give the pup to a pet home. Most dogs, in fact every dog of gundog breeding , I have ever encountered could be persuaded to retrieve rather than be made to retrieve but it is true that some pups are far keener to retrieve than others.

The American gundogs most often are keen "natural" retrievers and are also taught F.F. as many very good U.S. trainers believe that well taught F.F. increases the bond between man and dog and maybe gives the trainer something solid to fall back on should a dog ever refuse a particular retrieve. I can understand that having taught a dog in that way all those years ago but I still don't want to do it again.

Wullie

[kent]

I understand it perfectly firstly by Konrad Voss.

[Naj]

There's a huge difference between restraint & compulsion.

[Judy]

Depends on how compulsively restrained they are...

[newf]

Yes, just try waiting out a young spoiled dog to sit calmly before entering the dog park. You will be labeled cruel as you're about to feed the next quiet nano second.

[Naj]

[Cass]

Any process where you deliberately apply pain to a dog's ear or toe by use of a 'toe hitch' or ear 'pinch' to the extent that the dog opens its mouth in pain would contravene UK animal welfare legislation. And quite rightly. The supplementary guidance that covers the management of dogs also states that the dog should be trained through positive methods alone.

Naj

Seems you folks have it all figured out. Which is why we constantly have these redundant threads on this forum... LOL

[Cass]

The American gundogs most often are keen "natural" retrievers and are also taught F.F. as many very good U.S. trainers believe that well taught F.F. increases the bond between man and dog and maybe gives the trainer something solid to fall back on should a dog ever refuse a particular retrieve.

Correct, the dog must have a strong natural desire to retrieve. FF just shapes how that retrieve happens. I do not think FF would be very successful with a dog that had little or no desire to retrieve.

[Judy]

Any process where you deliberately apply pain to a dog's ear or toe by use of a 'toe hitch' or ear 'pinch' to the extent that the dog opens its mouth in pain would contravene UK animal welfare legislation. And quite rightly. The supplementary guidance that covers the management of dogs also states that the dog should be trained through positive methods alone.

Naj

Seems you folks have it all figured out. Which is why we constantly have these redundant threads on this forum... LOL

And on American forums also, I've sen them If an inexperienced person gets the training wrong the dog doesn't do what you expect of it wherever you live. The difference being with FF the dog suffers pain and still doesn't learn, at least by our, simpler, method there's no pain involved - the dog is simply manipulated into doing what we want by using a little mild psychology such as making it FUN.

[krakadawn]

Greetings from the FF continent.

I beg to differ that the dog 'doesn't learn' statement.

FF is badly understood by many, it certainly is far more than establishing a solid hold. It's about carrying properly, not rolling birds/bumpers, clean deliveries and establishing a clear expectation for the dog. It's also about setting the stage for much more of the training that will come...certainly for retrievers. There are some must 'do' behaviours and the dog clearly needs to understand the nature of a command.

I'm quite sure good trainers can find various methods to get the expected results desired. I have FF numerous dogs that were all dogs that competed in field trials, some catch on quickly and the process is quick and we move on. It really becomes a non issue afterwards and it looks like they always delivered in that fashion.

In field trials, I need a dog to return t the line, bird in mouth, not dropping, not playing with and certainly not mouthing the bird. I need a quick sit with clear focus with the rest of the task at hand of further retrieves. Wasting time on the line due to poor deliveries causes delay in memory of the rest of the test.

As I said...different strokes......to get what you want but sometimes just manipulating to achieve behaviour is an insufficient basis for future behaviour that will be expected. Kind of like using a poor quality foundation for a house. At some point it will be exposed.

You are quite correct about an inexperienced person.....anything can happen.

Cheers