Gundog Training Forum

scot-ish wrote:you're right - they dont.

but 2 generations back from both of those mens top stud dogs - takes us to probably the mostly widely recognized/accepted sprocker to run in trials.

i find it all interesting to me, there was always talk of springers being put into cockers, setters and all sorts. now it will be interesting to see the outcome of this all.

the fraud/deception side im not interested in.

i buy a dog to do a job, if it does its job, i got the dog i paid for. but should they come to light and state the sprockers should have ran etc they'll be stripping championship winners back into the 90's :O

I bet you'd be interested in the fraud/deception side of things if you were the one duped!!!!
I take you're point in if you buy a dog to do a job to a certain point, but you wouldn't spend the money that these cockers are and be happy to k ow you've got a mongrels I'm sure!!!
I think the idea from Platty was to get the problem acknowledged, dogs cockers with springer blood in the recent history named and a line drawn under it so people can then choose with a bit more knowledge what dogs and bitches to use, I think that's a good way to move on?

I'm not unsympathetic to the upset, but my understanding is that dogs are a species, and largely able to interbreed, even wolf to domesticated dog.The idea that current dog "breeds" are "pure" is ignorant, by which I mean uninformed. Most dog "breeds" , by which we mean phenotypes i.e. what they look like, are less than 200 years in the making. They are artificial "looks" of dogs and "types" of dogs bred for a purpose / look. They are all dogs, whether "pedigree" or " mongrel" they are just dogs, and in reality all mongrels. As we are now able to get to analyse the genotype, we will be able to see that all dogs are mongrels.

Humans are mongrels too. You can get a DNA test for about 200 pounds based on a cheek swab. It is a great delight to me that when you get your dna analysed you will usually find some asian, african, european, and 1-2 % neaderthal in there, from homo sapiens and homo errectus doing a bit of off kennel club rules breeding.

As humans, we apparently share 99.7% of our dna with neaderthals, and modern humans differ from rhesus monkeys in about 7 % of our dna.

I met a lovely looking dog this week, said to be a short haired version from wire haired visla parents, had a gsp like head, but ginger. Worked well. Apparently not "breed standard" as no whiskers. not a million miles off the appearance of my "liver" gsp pup. Isn't it time we gave up the pretence of "pedigree" and just assessed dogs on fitness for purpose, i.e can they do the task set for them? Would be refreshing don't you think, all comers Alaskan duck hunting trial, All comers grouse moor dog, all comers 400kg weight sled dog. Cockapoo, Spingador, 25 generation looks like a pointer, bring it on and lets see whos got the best dogs, and never mind breed standard preconceptions of how they "should " look.

But that would render any kind of pedigree pointless so how would we know what was behind our purchase? The whole point being a means of keeping records of why good dogs were put to which bitches. I suspect one or more keen to win types have bred Sprockers and then used them on the occasional bitch instead of the declared Sire. The sooner FT winners are gene tested for parentage rather than which breeds might be in their make-up the sooner we will have accurate pedigrees with no opportunity to cheat.

Dawnrazor wrote:

scot-ish wrote:you're right - they dont.

but 2 generations back from both of those mens top stud dogs - takes us to probably the mostly widely recognized/accepted sprocker to run in trials.

i find it all interesting to me, there was always talk of springers being put into cockers, setters and all sorts. now it will be interesting to see the outcome of this all.

the fraud/deception side im not interested in.

i buy a dog to do a job, if it does its job, i got the dog i paid for. but should they come to light and state the sprockers should have ran etc they'll be stripping championship winners back into the 90's :O

I bet you'd be interested in the fraud/deception side of things if you were the one duped!!!!
I take you're point in if you buy a dog to do a job to a certain point, but you wouldn't spend the money that these cockers are and be happy to k ow you've got a mongrels I'm sure!!!
I think the idea from Platty was to get the problem acknowledged, dogs cockers with springer blood in the recent history named and a line drawn under it so people can then choose with a bit more knowledge what dogs and bitches to use, I think that's a good way to move on?

i can see where its all coming from. for the record, i have a 1 here that has nothing but Mallowdale for about 4 generations.. the dog is doing exactly what i bought him for so far.

i can also see what the target is from andy, an i am not disagreeing with anything or taking sides. i just dont think the DNA testing for breed type trying to determine cocker from springer is accurate. i dont believe they are that genetically different. i know of a dog just know, direct from Andy's dog which set in amongst springers, would not look out of place. but its a cocker.
there was also a picture of a solid black dog with a white chest on FB recently pictured, full psringer, DNA tested as a full springer. i my opinion they are still to simliar of a breed, for DNA to determine them properly as seperate breeds conclusively

I wonder if HM is going to send someone to Pets at Home this morning to get a wisdom DNA kit?

When you consider that not long ago cockers and springers came out of the same litter and were only separated by weight distinction you have a point. I've been invited into a fb group by this woman as have many others but not sure where it can all go given that the company says the tests don't support legal action. Makes you wonder what the point of them is. I was also under the impression that the 3 generation graphics that they produce is just an example of where the springer blood might come from and not a precise rendition of it.

As regards paying your money and being happy with the results, any outcross has been done to produce dogs with a competitive advantage and that's plain wrong. And if you buy a cockerpoo for an exorbitant amount of money you know what you're paying for but when you pay good money for a cocker from a reputable breeder who has introduced springer blood then that's plain wrong. And if you're content that it's ok because you're onto a winner then what's the pleasure in winning with a dog like that.

Naj

Plainsman wrote:I wonder if HM is going to send someone to Pets at Home this morning to get a wisdom DNA kit?

Tickled by this

In all honesty does any one think the KC will actually do anything other than slapped wrist and don't do that again you naughty man!!!!!

alpha wrote:

Plainsman wrote:I wonder if HM is going to send someone to Pets at Home this morning to get a wisdom DNA kit?

Tickled by this

In all honesty does any one think the KC will actually do anything other than slapped wrist and don't do that again you naughty man!!!!!

I would guess that the KC will do precisely nothing.

The DNA test isn't worth the paper it's written on and wouldn't be admissible to trading standards or in court

I think its only fair that to balance things out that there have been dogs tested from this breeding by the same company and they have come back 100% cockers. So there's clearly a problem with the reliability of such tests.