Hunting what your thoughts?

[Lloyd90]

Your dog is working correctly, when finding foot scent he is dropping his head carriage and when looking for scent his head carriage is correct position. This is the natural instinct of the dog and its breeding. This incessant thought of thinking a dog needs its head glued to the ground shows the extent of what trials have become not knowing what a game finding dog is to do.
I was marked down heavily by a B panel, and I asked why. He said his head carriage was to high whilst hunting certain terrain, and I replied stating that we hadn't missed any game on our run. There was no reply.

I believe this is exactly right ... a dog should alternative it’s head a carriage to suit scenting conditions, whether picking up scent in the air / wind or scent on the floor or cover.

A dog shouldn’t have its nose permanently glued to the floor, that’s not natural.



As for the B panel judge ... how can someone pass a so called exam to become a judge if they don’t know what a hunting dog is supposed to be doing or look like? Or get recommended to be a judge in the first place ...

[Lloyd90]

Sounds logical to me. Ian, after all, you have a fair bit of experience under your belt cause that is your specialty: beating. Furthermore, you have dabbled in rough and hide shooting so we have to listen.

Thanks Brian.
I now have 5 seasons under my belt and as you know have been beating on quite a few different shoots so i like to think that although inexperienced by comparison i have some things to offer. I found rough shooting challenging at first as i had spent 4 seasons keeping her close then i asked her to get on, she was confused as usually gun in hand such as hide shooting or shooting driven at peg means she sits steady....context as naj would say. Anyway as i say imo beating holds no resemblance to FT and yet that is the regime we seem to follow and then wonder why many come unstuck on a beating line i have spoken to more than one keeper on the subject who would rather not have FT trained dogs on the beating line and who agree totally with my sentiment.... someone at some point should do a training manual / regime for the modern beating dog as thats what most of us in the uk do

Question here mind ...

Are dogs that are “just beating dogs” trained to work so close (just under the handlers feet as you say) because that’s what is needed on a pheasant shoot ... or because if they were to work further out that their owners would not be able to control them?!

On a beating line ... it doesn’t matter if the dog works within 5 yards or 50 yards of the handler ... as long as it remains under the handlers control, flushes when you want, and stops and comes back when called (so it can be walked on heel or put on a lead).

A good beating dog could theoretically work a pattern it had been trained and run 50 yards or even 100 yards either side of the handler, as long as it flushed the birds, stopped and then took commands on what to do next then what’s the problem? In fact some lads who work their spaniels up on the Grouse do just this ... they hunt their dogs out wide.

Personally on shoots where dogs spend most their time ‘under the handlers feet’ I honesty wonder if dogs are even needed... if the volume of birds is so massive on these giant commercial shoots, they must get enough birds to flush just from beaters walking and making noise and the odd bird flushed by dogs isn’t making or breaking the day.




I find it more difficult to rough shooters / trailers to train a dog to be hot on scent yet remain within shot ... as if the dog works too far out even if it stops to flush and shot, if the bird is flushed out of gun range then the bird is lost. This isn’t a worry for beaters dogs as they are often flushing birds to be pushed over waiting guns.

Beating dogs can (and often do) work far far ahead of their handlers, I went on one shoot and the beaters let their dogs off and almost every single dog just ran ahead in a straight line about 100+ yards all just totally out of control, while the beaters all walked along behind them blowing their whistles like mad and shouting whilst the dogs totally ignored them all!

As with most things in life a single term doesn’t seem to cover it.
The term “Beaters” is being used to describe a group on a shoot with dogs trained to hunt hard, flush, stop steady and handle as commanded. Then the group with a mixed pack of dogs all out of control and running a mock are also called beaters ... both lots could also be effective for pushing birds over guns ... but I know which group I would like to pick a dog from

[ips]

Cant argue with most of that Lloyd, you are correct that there are in effect different types of beating with different requirements from the dog which is why i was specific in my reply in "commercial" type shoots which seems from my experience to be what most folk do. In these instances i believe a dog does need to be very close (with the odd exception depending on the drive) no keeper on any commercial type shoot i have ever worked on would want or allow (very often) a handler to work the dog at 50yd or indeed to quarter. On shoots i work on you are in a beating line and work your beat which would be probably 15yd either side max. Yes there are occasions were you are tasked to work an area on your own were you can do some proper hunting but it isnt often on my shoots anyway. Every keeper i have worked for seems to favour a handler who can work his dog close, stop it and recall it quickly once a big flush occurs, steadiness in the presence of large numbers of birds is paramount, keeper aint to bothered if dog is hunting a nice pattern and with style he just wants a tight and compliant beating liñe.

You are absolutely correct on most of what you say though and i cannot deny it.

[ips]

The only reason why keepers dont like trial dogs is that they are well trained , hunt close ,stop to flush and make their disobedient ill bred muppets look stoopid.
How does beating hold no resemblance to field trials? I know of many trialing men who work their dogs in the beating line and you can bet their dogs are bang on the whistle. One of the top FTCH s has spent several seasons in the beating line. A dog trained to trial standard is capable of doing any job,whether beating or picking up.

I am sure there are many folk able to trial and beat and do both very well, but one assumes you trained for both ?
My point was that if you train solely for trials you could come unstuck. My one would be rubbish at FT because i haven't trained for it and what she is now accustomed to doing whilst beating would be detrimental for trialing, i even found it detrimental for rough shooting. I know what i mean but maybe not explaining it very well so apologies.

[ips]

In your opinion ips trial dogs are not capable of beating?

I didnt say that exactly and apologies if it came across that way. I merely allude to the fact that imo if your training for a specific "discipline" you have a better chance of doing well at it rather than trying to do different things which could effect how well you do at any of them. I base this on my competitive shooting days were most folk concentrate on a specific discipline (with the very very rare exception) muddling with other disciplines is usually detrimental to your main one. My point probably badly made is that we all train for ft standard or as close to it as possible but it is my belief that for the majority of us most of it is irrelevant. I am doing a bad job of trying to get my thoughts across so again my apologies

[ips]

How does beating hold no resemblance to field trials?

From what i have seen on vids it eeems to me that trials are hunting in relatively low numbers of birds in cover, dog gets a flush and gets reward of a retrieve for steadiness to flush.

Beating commercial shoot dog is at heel a lot of the time in presence of very high numbers of birds most of which are in the open, occasionally gets to hunt some cover and may get a flush but does not get the reward of a retrieve. I believe the last point regarding no reward of retrieve is an important one and the reason that its sometimes difficult to keep hold of a dog on a beating line, i believe that this missing link is highly frustrating for the dog, that is how i have read my one anyway.

I am not saying one type of dog work is any more difficult or challenging than another merely that they are all different and require different training / working methods.

The above based on somewhat limited experience and i havent seen a trial in the flesh so i could be totally wrong on some or indeed all counts

[munstyman]

Just my tuppence worth But a well trained ( compliant ) dog is more capable of adapting its training to its work ( you can take `context' in training to the point of excuse imo ) If you have a dog `on the whistle' you can allow or deny the hunting range of any dog, if its got the range/desire in the first place.... its called handling what you have trained

The only reason why keepers dont like trial dogs is that they are well trained , hunt close ,stop to flush and make their disobedient ill bred muppets look stoopid.

There is some mileage in those words of wisdom

[ips]

Just my tuppence worth But a well trained ( compliant ) dog is more capable of adapting its training to its work ( you can take `context' in training to the point of excuse imo ) If you have a dog `on the whistle' you can allow or deny the hunting range of any dog, if its got the range/desire in the first place.... its called handling what you have trained
:

That's a fare point MM,

[Lloyd90]

I get what your saying Ian,

For the beater who has no desire to trial or rough shoot ... they just want to work their dog because they enjoy it, then they might be better off training the dog to go beating as you say.

I had a problem myself, I trained my dog with the shooting books and DVD’s ... first day I took him beating, he stopped to flush a few times, but after several shots he wasn’t expecting to hunt on he was expecting to go retrieve that bird he just flushed... and wanted to run off ahead to go and find it!

Now I have no doubt this is from a combination of my ignorance of not expecting or seeing this issue, my poor training and my and the dogs lack of experience. However I am sure a lot of beaters have had similar issues.



If beaters were to train in a structured way that trained their dog to hunt close, flush, and then carry on, without ever retrieving a bird, 90% of them would be happy with that and could carry on going beating.

One of the best beaters on our small shoot had two cockers, his older one wouldn't ever pick a bird, would flush all day long though and stay under his control and he was very happy with that.



There are more and more people who are buying gundogs as pets or dipping their toes in gundog work. They buy their dogs and then want to bring them beating or picking up. A lot of them don’t shoot and have no interesting in shooting ... but beating works well...

The issue however can start when their average shooting dogs starts to get proclaimed as one of the best working spaniels around (because they wouldn’t know a good dog if it bit them on the bollocks) and start breeding it with all sorts.

I have seen some truly shocking dogs at tests and I have only been to a handful as a newcomer and always shocks me that their owner proclaims how brilliant they are and tells me how many litters they have sired or had when they can’t do the most simple of tasks!

This has truly put me off ever buying a “good working dog” as I wouldn’t trust anyone to give an honest appraisal ...

I will be the first to tell you my dog is shite but if he starts hunting cover better I might tell him he’s average lol... he’s not going anywhere though as he’s a much loved family member.

[Judy]

I only have experience of one lot of Trial dogs beating and it was many years ago. The guy got his dog out of the truck took it for one drive during which it smashed the cover and itself then he put it back in the truck and got another out, repeated the exercise on the following drive then went home. Is that what you mean by taking a Trial dog beating? How do you get the dog to understand it has to go flat out for maybe 20 minutes one week then last all day the next? Certainly the above Trialler would only run his dogs for 20 minutes or so at a time.

Someone I know trained one of his Springers to hunt close and never taught it to retrieve, he took that one beating, the rest were trained as Retrievers he said its much easier on him and the dogs.

I trained my Test Retrievers to sit to shot, it didn't take them long to learn that it was a waste of time on a real shoot day whether beating or picking up.

To be fair there is no need whatsoever to have dogs in the beating line on big commercial shoots until after Christmas when birds are getting thin on the ground and wise to what the on coming noise means.