Fun with Ceilidh!

[Mikew]

I am a bit of a purist. Enjoy your Summer. Mike

[CockerCanuck]

So very few WC here in Canada. Other than my own I have seen only a handful. To be honest I knew very little about them ten years ago when I got my first. My assumption was that the are just smaller Springers and their shorter legs should be easier to keep up with my old ones. I have had over 6 decades of experience owning and trialing NA style Springers. I treated my first WC Fergal just as I would a Springer pup and he responded. It helped that he was a tenacious natural retriever and his instinctive range suited me fine. I have had lot of fun rough shooting with him and he is a dependable yet joyful gundog. I now have the 15 week old Ceilidh who I am getting started. She is very similar to Fergal. If anything a little more relaxed and calm but certainly very biddable (to use an out of date term).

Now to the point of this post. With time on my hands and the Internet at my fingertips I started to watch UK videos of Cocker training in case I could pick up some new ideas. I have watched Mordor Gundogs, Hampshire Spaniels and Kugae. To my horror I learned that I am dealing with scatterbrained little terrors who are much more difficult to handle than Springers??? If I had seen these stories ten years ago I doubt I would have considered one. It just doesn’t match my experience. My question is did I just get lucky with the two I have or is this whole “naughty cocker” thing way overblown on the internet?

[munstyman]

I often wonder is it the case that some people have it in their nature to be more open minded and therefore mould their training around the dog in front of them, while others are prone to try and mould the dog, and the preconception, around their training? However, I have come across some dogs who are mentally on a different level, both in good and bad ways, which mean luck, maybe does play a part.
I take the good with the bad and just enjoy the experience of trying to make the best of it. Enjoy your pup CC, I'm not quite at the stage of being envious just yet, enjoying a settled, comfortable routine without the drama.

[Naj]

Yes, the whole naughty cocker thing has been way overblown! It all started with Keith Erlandson, a prolific writer and gundog trainer, who painted this picture of the naughty cocker that lives on to this day in the folklore surrounding the cocker. He even likened them to a Mexican bandit in character, if memory serves me right. But it was all tongue in cheek. This was a at a time, 1960s and 70s, when the breed was in the doldrums and had the reputation of being poor hunters and retrievers. Unlike today, the Springer reigned supreme and this, inevitably, is what everyone compared the cocker to, a bit like with Labradors and the other minor retrieving breeds. The cocker was more independently minded than the springer, probably because it was essentially a rabbiting dog, and unlike the springer needed game to get it motivated to hunt, which wasn’t conducive to the needs of suburban handlers who lacked easy access to game. Erlandson pointed out that the springer adapted better than the cocker to working on pheasants after rabbits were wiped out ny myxy in the early 50s, primarily because they took to handling on retrieves better. You don’t have to handle an experienced dog when shooting rabbits. The breed has improved no end since then but probably still retains a more independent nature, something modern handlers who rarely shoot don’t seem to appreciate. I think that your set up and proximity to game would make training a much easier experience for you because it all favours this breed.

[CockerCanuck]

Yes, the whole naughty cocker thing has been way overblown! It all started with Keith Erlandson, a prolific writer and gundog trainer, who painted this picture of the naughty cocker that lives on to this day in the folklore surrounding the cocker. He even likened them to a Mexican bandit in character, if memory serves me right. But it was all tongue in cheek. This was a at a time, 1960s and 70s, when the breed was in the doldrums and had the reputation of being poor hunters and retrievers. Unlike today, the Springer reigned supreme and this, inevitably, is what everyone compared the cocker to, a bit like with Labradors and the other minor retrieving breeds. The cocker was more independently minded than the springer, probably because it was essentially a rabbiting dog, and unlike the springer needed game to get it motivated to hunt, which wasn’t conducive to the needs of suburban handlers who lacked easy access to game. Erlandson pointed out that the springer adapted better than the cocker to working on pheasants after rabbits were wiped out ny myxy in the early 50s, primarily because they took to handling on retrieves better. You don’t have to handle an experienced dog when shooting rabbits. The breed has improved no end since then but probably still retains a more independent nature, something modern handlers who rarely shoot don’t seem to appreciate. I think that your set up and proximity to game would make training a much easier experience for you because it all favours this breed.

Elandson’s Training Gundogs has been on my bookshelf for nearly 50 years. I would have bought it around 1980 when I started trialing the Springer I had then. I would have skipped over any sections on Cockers as they were about as common as unicorns here at that time

I wonder if another factor at play is that Springers have been common gundogs here for over 100 years. In that time has developed a NA “type” which I understand is bigger running and more independent than what is popular in the UK now. On the other hand Cockers are new and only been here a generation or two so can’t be that different than their British grandparents. Perhaps the “type” of Springers I have known my whole life are not that different than Cockers???

[Naj]

Yes, Springers developed differently in the US because the nature of your field trials are markedly different to how they are run in the U.K. Talbot Radcliffe had an estate on Anglesey and his Saightons kennel bred and trained a strain of springer exclusively for the American market. They performed well for a while but weren’t popular with U.K. triallers, other than Erlandson once had success with a dog called Saightons Stinger. (?). Cocker trials are a relatively recent innovation and I remember Erlandson had a lot to do with advising on how they were run and consequently they are more akin to UK trials. Plus we were exporting lots of cockers across the pond. Oppenshaw and other influential U.K. trainers were also involved, as I recall.

[CockerCanuck]

Yes, Springers developed differently in the US because the nature of your field trials are markedly different to how they are run in the U.K. Talbot Radcliffe had an estate on Anglesey and his Saightons kennel bred and trained a strain of springer exclusively for the American market. They performed well for a while but weren’t popular with U.K. triallers, other than Erlandson once had success with a dog called Saightons Stinger. (?). Cocker trials are a relatively recent innovation and I remember Erlandson had a lot to do with advising on how they were run and consequently they are more akin to UK trials. Plus we were exporting lots of cockers across the pond. Oppenshaw and other influential U.K. trainers were also involved, as I recall.

My first really well bred springer was a granddaughter of Saightons Stinger. A powerful big running bitch with tons of drive but little “off switch”. Good dog for me in my early years.

[Mikew]

Naj. Spot on. Regarding the States and all. The dogs and the way it came about. For an American I am much closer to British standards than to the majority in the U S. I have a friend that has only British and Scotland dogs Springers they are. I have spent time at her home and watched her train. Seen her dogs and females. Hunted a couple times together. Out of top producing Ftch males and females. They were
nice dogs. Hunted close, attentive intelligent dogs. She is a good trainer. She was always good to me and I liked visiting her and the small kennel. She had a good set up for training dogs. Pigeon pen, reared pheasants and a nice Log home property. I purchased all the cocker championship films from start. I attended a few locker championships in the States and I would say they a pretty good job of things. I never seen a US Springer trail. They just aren't in my area of the country. By the way, there would never be an American bred Springer bred to or into any of her dogs. They are pure from direct imports. I told her about hunting rabbits with my Cocker and that it was great and I had a lot of fun. Then one day we had a Rabbit day together, Chris with Scotland bred female and me with my Welsh bred working Cocker. Fun day we had. Mike

[Naj]

Naj. Spot on. Regarding the States and all. The dogs and the way it came about. For an American I am much closer to British standards than to the majority in the U S. I have a friend that has only British and Scotland dogs Springers they are. I have spent time at her home and watched her train. Seen her dogs and females. Hunted a couple times together. Out of top producing Ftch males and females. They were
nice dogs. Hunted close, attentive intelligent dogs. She is a good trainer. She was always good to me and I liked visiting her and the small kennel. She had a good set up for training dogs. Pigeon pen, reared pheasants and a nice Log home property. I purchased all the cocker championship films from start. I attended a few locker championships in the States and I would say they a pretty good job of things. I never seen a US Springer trail. They just aren't in my area of the country. By the way, there would never be an American bred Springer bred to or into any of her dogs. They are pure from direct imports. I told her about hunting rabbits with my Cocker and that it was great and I had a lot of fun. Then one day we had a Rabbit day together, Chris with Scotland bred female and me with my Welsh bred working Cocker. Fun day we had. Mike

Yes, there’s nothing better than shooting rabbits over spaniels. They were made for the job. Although on open ground and soft cover I prefer the cocker over a springer because of their close hunting, finicky style of hunting.

[CockerCanuck]

Spaniels and rabbits are a funny subject here. When I was young we always hunted rabbits and hares with my father’s ESS. I have always shot a few a year over mine. Sometime in the 1990’s I ran into many with the opinion that you should not shoot rabbits in front of “bird dogs”. I have never had a problem with it. I enjoy seeing them pop them out and it’s up to me if I shoot. I have never had a dog leave a hot pheasant scent to pursue a bunny. Here rabbit populations cycle in balance with their predators. Right now we are way down with coyotes and foxes so we have bunnies in abundance. Ceilidh is already enjoying harassing them. I will probably shoot a few in front of her this winter but only after I get her solidly on birds.