Gundog Training Forum

Miesque wrote:

Dawnrazor wrote:

Miesque wrote:
Maybe written tone is hard to convey - I find yours to be argumentative and obstructive but I assume that's not how you mean it be. You find my writing to be uncivil, that's not how I mean it be. I'm just stating the facts and trying to point out how it is possible to sort the whole mess out definitely once and for all - hardly uncivil!

"argumentative and obstructive" I've asked a couple of questions that you, despite your obvious knowledge on the subject, have failed to answer property, you clearly haven't been very far if you think that's "argumentative and obstructive '!!!
You do not have the monopoly on wanting to sort this mess out, you do not have the monopoly information on what's been done by who and when, this holier than thou attitude of yours does seem to come across pretty strong. If you have the answers on how to sort this mess out once and for all, well.........what was I saying about arrogance?!!
Tell us, in layman's terms, we've not all got letters after our names, how the many wisdom tests, not three!!, CONSISTENTLY come back as sprockers from the lines in question?, you may say they are not, you've seen three.

Wisdom panel cannot distinguish well between recently created/divided breeds. Such as Cockers and Springers. This is in the fine print for the test. So the results are not accurate.

There may be a perfectly good reason that I'm not aware and am keen to hear it, but you do seem to be in the minority in dismissing wisdoms work, again, maybe with good reason.

Lack of understanding of the science behind the tests. It's hard for someone to disbelieve a test which gives them the results they want. What myself and many others have tried to explain is that the results are inaccurate and there's a better test to use - easily accessible and not expensive (in fact it's cheaper than the wisdom panel I believe) which gives definitive results.

Then tell us how you would sort the whole mess out once and for all, now, you may be questioned on you reply, if you are, no one, I'm sure, is being "argumentative or obstructive" just trying to figure out what's wheat and what's chaff, I've been to hundreds of meeting over the years with various "scientific" types and am well aware of how they do not like being questioned by the proletariat so I'll keep this in mind.

I've said it again and again on various threads. The only way to sort it out is to use DNA profiling of litters/siblings to ensure the parentage is correct, exactly as Contender has mentioned. It's the only accurate way to do it - it entails matching the DNA of a pup that of a parent(s) and is almost infallible. Sgurr mentioned there is a move to doing just this guided by a geneticist which is wonderful news.

Thanks, I take most of your points, but still, how does the wisdom test keep giving the same results when a certain Li e of cockers is tested? Others have been tested and from different lines and have diffirent results, this is what I've asked over and not got an answer??? The company have no axe to grind with Openshaw and I'm sure they're not making the results up!!!!
I take your point of "lack of knowledge of the science" as I've said, I'm not a scientist, I do not however accept that it's "not that answer I'm looking for" I've no dog in this fight other than wanting to know why the wisdom test is as it is!!! That's all.
The dna testing and matching to the micro chips I totally agree with and strongly suspect this will come into play.
Edit.
Would any geneticist give a 100% guarantee on anything? I know the science behind the dna the police and courts rely on are different but I'm sure the reasonable don't argument comes into it?
Is the "small print" in the wisdom a d similar companies paperwork not just an arse covering exercise? Like I said, I'm no scientist and have direct interest but I'm curious.

Judy would have moderator blow out for sure. Trying to keep up of FB is a nightmare

I think geneticists can give a guarantee on parentage if both parents and progeny are tested. They have also found numerous 'markers' for different diseases which are pretty accurate although some diseases (as I understand it) may be multifactorial and not related to just one faulty gene.

When it comes to deciding on a particular breed how can they establish a baseline for comparison unless they know they have a perfectly bred dog that is descended from "pure" Cockers for something like 50 generations? Is there such a dog? They can only go by averages, as I understand it.

Another thing which worries me slightly, how do we know that all the Wisdom gene tests from a particular line have come back as Sprockers? How do we know that the pure Cockers haven't been quietly binned? Nobody knows for sure, just as they don't know whether someone hasn't used Sprocker DNA instead of the stated dog(s) from that line? I don't think any of this will stand up in Court, what I do know is we have to start from here and build - get all pedigree dogs used for breeding DNA profiled and get the offspring profiled and linked to their microchips. Read the chips at Trials too then this lot can be put to bed. Its not doing anyone any good.

I think the ultimate answer with DNA is if they have the gene code thats dysfunctional i.e. the ones that are present in PRA, AMS & FN etc they are there to be read on the DNA string (and in humans like HH, Sickle Cell, Downs and all the others) they can see if they are present so can test for it.

However if in human terms (and probably canine) Atavism can, will and does happen:

Atavism is the reappearance in an individual of characteristics of some remote ancestor that have been absent in intervening generations.

So when mixed race parents have a "white" child or "brown eyed" child from blue eyed parents this is what happens the gene lies dormant and then suddenly there is a recurrence of or reversion to a past appearance, style or manner which will show up on a general test

The problem you have with Wisdom is NO ONE can say what the baseline DNA actually is...is it American cocker, sprocker, show cocker or even some other like field spaniel......so without an absolute from the test base line type no proof can be gained.

So who can say with absolute proof which results are true .....or are they all American Cockers with some springer the ones coming back as "almost all cocker"

Sorry to play devils advocate but this argument wont stand up at the KC or in court due to the scientific facts of genetics

Id think that the Wisdom, which apparently has been 20 in development and developed by geneticists, will have thought of these things? I can't see with all that they'd just guess!!! Do other people know what Base lines are used? I think wisdom could explain things, or are they bound by "patents" so they can't? I'd still like to know why the test from the suspect lines are coming back as they are??!!
Isn't wisdom the Kc's recommended company for these things? How can they ignore the results?

Some possible answers;

http://www.wisdompanel.co.uk/why_test_your_dog/faqs/

Judy wrote:Some possible answers;

http://www.wisdompanel.co.uk/why_test_your_dog/faqs/

I'm only reading g this as it's too bloody foggy to go lamping Grrrrrrrr!!
What are the answers to the points I raised Judy? You seem to have the patience to read through all that!!!

I haven't had time yet,will have a proper look 'ron, probably the end of the season the way things are going. Meantime, its foggy, get on with it!

This issue can not be rectified from the past. It can and should be rectified in the future. The breeds, pedigrees, parentage or specific lines can be determined correctly when proper methods are applied. DNA testing and microchips are a very good start. All sires, dams and pups DNA profiled and microchip starting now. Sure it will take a few generations to become accurate. But from then on will become less vulnerable to these types of fallacies. Which will bring integrity to the forefront. Cross breeding can still be accomplished but will leave holes in pedigrees and breeder integrity. Look to the future not the past.

Wisdom say it's the KC that defines the purity of the breed, that their tests can't be relied upon to prove anything, and that you can get a false test if a dog of one breed drinks or eats out of a bowl used by another breed within a couple of hours of taking a swab, which doesn't sound hopeful for mixed kennels. A bloke on fb has recently admitted to being there when breeding was being fiddled across all breeds, not just cockers. And I believe he is a ft judge. And by all accounts there are plenty of others who seem to know a lot about this going on and have done for years. If they stepped up to the mark then we wouldn't need all these tests.

Naj