Gundog Training Forum

chrokeva wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 pm I have four dogs all of which have been completely collar conditioned. By this I mean the dogs were trained completely without the collar and then the collar was overlayed on known commands. It is a process and once a dog is properly collar conditioned it is not very common that you even need to use the collar. Imo a collar is best used to keep a young dog going right rather than correct a behaviour that has been allowed to become a problem.

Most negative comments on the collar are from people that have no idea how to use a collar or condition a dog to it properly. It would be nice if people became educated on the proper use before forming harsh opinions.

I agree 100% with above. I use to be very negative on ecollars. (I still am in a way in that I don't like that they encourage the breeding of very "hot" dogs who can only be trained with them). My early experience with them was seeing them used as a punishment tool for dogs which had already developed bad behaviour which should never have become ingrained if "traditional" training had been done consistently and correctly.

However in the last few years I have been more exposed to people who use them as Chrokeva describes in a much more sophisticated and subtle way. However, I am not an apostle for the collar if you don't have the dedication to learn to use it properly and a community around you who can teach you. In the hands of someone who does not really understand their proper use looking for a "quick fix" to a problem behaviour, which they have allowed to develop, they can be a cruel and excessive tool. (as can a leash, choke collar or rope). In my experience they are not good for "teaching" a dog anything, they are wonderful for encouraging quick and consistent responses to commands the dog already learned the traditional way.

Both my gundogs are collar conditioned and are frantically happy when they see me get it out. Obviously they associate it with working and they can't wait to get it on and do what they love to do.

ips wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:08 pm
Cass
So does the dog associate the collar with hunting / working rather than seeing it as a bad thing like the blokes dog that i described. ?

Yes

Cass wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:49 pm

ips wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:08 pm
Cass
So does the dog associate the collar with hunting / working rather than seeing it as a bad thing like the blokes dog that i described. ?

Yes

It’s more likely that the dog you saw, Ips, that wouldn’t get out of the truck simply associated that shoot environment, or getting out of the truck, or even the handler in that context, with unpleasant consequences or may simply have been arthritic. I wonder if you saw it hunting during the day. People make a huge leap in wishful thinking when they make the assumption that a dog doesn’t mind punishment ‘because it’s tail is still wagging’, or it loves the e collar ‘because you ought to see the excitement when I get it out’ etc. That type of thinking is just a salve for the conscience, because we’re all only human and don’t like to think that we might be mean to our dogs. I was once a hard trainer but my dogs still bounced out of the kennel when I saw them and looked happy enough to see me but that was stereotypical (appeasement) behaviour just as the change in their behaviour when my body language changed to that of a threat. But they had ‘respect’ for me back then, which was something I sought. I wouldn’t want to actively seek that type of body language today but probably the majority of trainers still see it as ‘respectful’ and a good thing, which it is if you’re training by developing aversive control.

It’s the same with the e collar. A dog can’t possibly associate future punishment with some benign object that the handler puts around its neck at the start of the day. It isn’t capable of that type of logic. If it shocked the dog immediately it touched the neck then, yes, a direct association might be made but not with something so distanced from the punishment. In practice, the putting on of the e collar becomes just part of the ritual of ‘yay, we’re going hunting’, or out training or walking, just another cue that fun stuff is about to start, just as the rattling of the car or gun cabinet keys, the getting out of boots and bags, even the cloths the handler is wearing predict it. It won’t make any future punishment less punishing or make the pain (stimulation, call it what you will) in the neck become associated with something the handler did way back in time. As with all forms of punishment, I think we owe it to our dogs to take responsibility for giving it and not to sugar coat it just to make us feel better.

Naj

Naj
I cant say that i saw it working as bloke is not on my team but i have seen it in the past and its hard work, it seems to go by the name of "little bastard" at least thats all you hear during the day . I dont remember him using a collar in the past so it must be new, for the record i have never seen him being harsh with the dog in any way and i have known him for 5 seasons

Naj wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:44 am I was once a hard trainer but my dogs still bounced out of the kennel when I saw them and looked happy enough to see me but that was stereotypical (appeasement) behaviour just as the change in their behaviour when my body language changed to that of a threat.

How do they greet you now? Talking to yer hand?

Naj wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:44 amIt’s the same with the e collar. A dog can’t possibly associate future punishment with some benign object that the handler puts around its neck at the start of the day. It isn’t capable of that type of logic. ... another cue that fun stuff is about to start, just as the rattling of the car or gun cabinet keys, the getting out of boots and bags, even the cloths the handler is wearing predict it.

Naj

Contradiction again? Ya must be getting old If the dog can't predict it why then go to all the trouble of putting on a dummy collar for weeks before using the 'real thing'? Why should a dog behave when wearing the collar if there is no association between that and pain?
Ips said the dog didn't like having the collar put on so obviously there must be some association, whether because the owner zapped the dog immediately to remind it that he was in charge or the dog associated the collar with pain, we'll never know. Either way I still don't understand the need for any kind of remote control with a dog, remote retribution isn't my thing - if I feel a need to remonstrate with my dogs, any dogs, I'd rather they know it comes directly from me although I suspect it doesn't take a dog long to learn that the shock comes from the "master".

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 am Naj
I cant say that i saw it working as bloke is not on my team but i have seen it in the past and its hard work, it seems to go by the name of "little bastard" at least thats all you hear during the day . I dont remember him using a collar in the past so it must be new, for the record i have never seen him being harsh with the dog in any way and i have known him for 5 seasons

So the dog still works once out the van, which rather proves my point, that its easy to jump to (convenient) conclusions about what a dog may or may not be thinking, and it’s highly unlikely for a dog to make an association between an unpleasant consequence and an inanimate object placed around its neck some time before. At least with traditional corrections it can make a direct association between the punishment and the punisher/handler.

Naj

Naj, you're entitled as always to your "cri du current" v. the e-collar, but have you also spoken with gundogs about the "pain" they feel? if so maybe they confided that the most hurtful instrument of all, to them "personally," can be HMV - her or his master's voice, on a "good" barracking or harsh admonition.

MG

Naj wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:44 am

Cass wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:49 pm

ips wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:08 pm
Cass
So does the dog associate the collar with hunting / working rather than seeing it as a bad thing like the blokes dog that i described. ?

Yes

It’s more likely that the dog you saw, Ips, that wouldn’t get out of the truck simply associated that shoot environment, or getting out of the truck, or even the handler in that context, with unpleasant consequences or may simply have been arthritic. I wonder if you saw it hunting during the day. People make a huge leap in wishful thinking when they make the assumption that a dog doesn’t mind punishment ‘because it’s tail is still wagging’, or it loves the e collar ‘because you ought to see the excitement when I get it out’ etc. That type of thinking is just a salve for the conscience, because we’re all only human and don’t like to think that we might be mean to our dogs. I was once a hard trainer but my dogs still bounced out of the kennel when I saw them and looked happy enough to see me but that was stereotypical (appeasement) behaviour just as the change in their behaviour when my body language changed to that of a threat. But they had ‘respect’ for me back then, which was something I sought. I wouldn’t want to actively seek that type of body language today but probably the majority of trainers still see it as ‘respectful’ and a good thing, which it is if you’re training by developing aversive control.

It’s the same with the e collar. A dog can’t possibly associate future punishment with some benign object that the handler puts around its neck at the start of the day. It isn’t capable of that type of logic. If it shocked the dog immediately it touched the neck then, yes, a direct association might be made but not with something so distanced from the punishment. In practice, the putting on of the e collar becomes just part of the ritual of ‘yay, we’re going hunting’, or out training or walking, just another cue that fun stuff is about to start, just as the rattling of the car or gun cabinet keys, the getting out of boots and bags, even the cloths the handler is wearing predict it. It won’t make any future punishment less punishing or make the pain (stimulation, call it what you will) in the neck become associated with something the handler did way back in time. As with all forms of punishment, I think we owe it to our dogs to take responsibility for giving it and not to sugar coat it just to make us feel better.

Naj said above "It’s the same with the e collar. A dog can’t possibly associate future punishment with some benign object that the handler puts around its neck at the start of the day. It isn’t capable of that type of logic"

I respect and have learned a lot from you Naj but the statement above is categorically wrong. Dogs who have not been properly conditioned to the collar and have had it misused on them absolutely know it is the collar which is scaring them. Their whole behaviour and demeanor changes when it is on. Properly conditioned dogs attitude is exactly the same with it on or off and are very happy to see it because they associate it with working. The way I use it you never see a physical reaction in the dog when nicked. Is it a "correction" a "reminder" "communication" all terms are accurate depending on your point of view. I think of it like a tug on a leash to get their attention and remind them I am here. Its just a tug on the leash I can administer at exactly the right moment over hundreds of yards if necessary.

CockerCanuck wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:47 am . Is it a "correction" a "reminder" "communication" all terms are accurate depending on your point of view. I think of it like a tug on a leash to get their attention and remind them I am here. Its just a tug on the leash I can administer at exactly the right moment over hundreds of yards if necessary.

This is how i am beginning to see it. It seems to me to be the same as running em down and doing whatever, (in my case a verbal bollocking or a picking up which obviously distresses her as she will immediately submit) but without the running Also the "reminder" as i would call it (if indeed i ever used it which is unlikely) would be given at the precise moment of the misdemeanor which according to everyone is an absolute must, this begs the question as to why run em down at all if the moment has gone i digress

Coincidentally i have just seen an add for a spray collar !!!!
Sprays something as opposed to nicks it, any thoughts on that one ??