E-Touch / E-Collar training

[ips]

Naj
I cant say that i saw it working as bloke is not on my team but i have seen it in the past and its hard work, it seems to go by the name of "little bastard" at least thats all you hear during the day . I dont remember him using a collar in the past so it must be new, for the record i have never seen him being harsh with the dog in any way and i have known him for 5 seasons

So the dog still works once out the van, which rather proves my point, that its easy to jump to (convenient) conclusions about what a dog may or may not be thinking, and it’s highly unlikely for a dog to make an association between an unpleasant consequence and an inanimate object placed around its neck some time before. At least with traditional corrections it can make a direct association between the punishment and the punisher/handler.

Naj

I am merely quoting the bloke naj, dog was cowering in the truck and would not get out, bloke laughed and said "he hates the collar" no feckin wonder. By thé sound of it from what our friends over the water are saying it needs careful introduction and a real understanding of the training principles, something we simply dont have over here

[Naj]

I agree, MG, that punishment comes in many forms, but we were talking about e collars and just because a dog finds a verbal reprimand particularly punishing doesn’t make other forms of punishment less so.

CC, I think the clue is in the term ‘conditioning’. A dog is effectively being conditioned to the collar every time it wears one and that might be considered good or bad conditioning, depending upon your perspective. But any behaviour when wearing a collar is down to the associations it has built up over a period of time, the history behind the behaviours, because a dog can’t know what is beyond it’s ken. So I’d put it to you that this is just context again and what the dog has learnt over a period of time when in the context of being with the handler, generally in quite specific contexts. The wearing of the collar, per se, is academic. If it finds going out with the (bad?) handler to be a scary experience because it gets unexpectedly shocked for no apparent reason then it is going to appear skittish, just as a dog can crawl about on its belly and generally look cowed when out with a heavy handed and inept correctional trainer. But even with a less heavy handed trainer you can get stereotypical behaviour associated with the e collar because if a dog is frequently being ‘ tapped on the shoulder’ when it makes unwanted choices you get a stacking effect and pretty soon the dog gets wary about what it should be doing in case it leads to a nick. Some may recall the training videos posted on here of collar conditioned dogs being sent along technical water channels and over jumps on land for retrieves and it was commented on how uncertain and wary the dogs were. And they were pro trainers.

Just to address Judy’s comments that dogs trained with e collars only behave when they’re wearing an e collar, no they don’t. It’s common practice to leave collars on trained dogs for when the dog goes wrong. And we’ve all seen dogs wearing collars that still misbehave.

Naj

[newf]

. Is it a "correction" a "reminder" "communication" all terms are accurate depending on your point of view. I think of it like a tug on a leash to get their attention and remind them I am here. Its just a tug on the leash I can administer at exactly the right moment over hundreds of yards if necessary.

This is how i am beginning to see it. It seems to me to be the same as running em down and doing whatever, (in my case a verbal bollocking or a picking up which obviously distresses her as she will immediately submit) but without the running Also the "reminder" as i would call it (if indeed i ever used it which is unlikely) would be given at the precise moment of the misdemeanor which according to everyone is an absolute must, this begs the question as to why run em down at all if the moment has gone i digress

IPS, that’s where those against punishing a dog or even others who are stymied in its use by the lie of the first group. Punishment for an action that is unwanted does not have to happen immediately. In matter of fact, a time lapse before its application is more desirable in being effective in tying the consequence to the action. What is crucial is marking the instant of when the dog goes wrong. Saying ‘no’, using a gruff voice and even a tone on an e-collar are some but not limited to, one’s choices.

[chrokeva]

When I was training border collies years ago for sheepdog trials we would often run a dog down from 100 yards plus for a scuffing. I doubt to this day those dogs knew where they went wrong only that they had gone wrong and would pay attention better to the handler after that.
You can use a collar in the same manner BUT imo better to use in a way that trains the dog. For instance say the dog is quartering down the field and you see the dog turn its head slightly up field. You know the dog is thinking about going down field so at that very moment you give the dog a draw whistle and then a slight nick and a draw whistle again... the dog turns back towards you and you continue on your way. Next time the dog thinks of turning up field it remembers that slight nick
and decides not to. You have trained the dog a specific lesson. If however that nick comes at the wrong time it can be very bad as you may have taught the dog the opposite of what you intended and then the dog is confused.

If timing is good then it is a great tool but quite honestly most people do not have that great of timing and just use it as nothing more than a remote scuffing.

[Springfield Pointers]

Coincidentally i have just seen an add for a spray collar !!!!
Sprays something as opposed to nicks it, any thoughts on that one ??

Not much use for training bird dogs.

[Springfield Pointers]

. Is it a "correction" a "reminder" "communication" all terms are accurate depending on your point of view. I think of it like a tug on a leash to get their attention and remind them I am here. Its just a tug on the leash I can administer at exactly the right moment over hundreds of yards if necessary.

This is how i am beginning to see it. It seems to me to be the same as running em down and doing whatever, (in my case a verbal bollocking or a picking up which obviously distresses her as she will immediately submit) but without the running Also the "reminder" as i would call it (if indeed i ever used it which is unlikely) would be given at the precise moment of the misdemeanor which according to everyone is an absolute must, this begs the question as to why run em down at all if the moment has gone i digress

IPS, that’s where those against punishing a dog or even others who are stymied in its use by the lie of the first group. Punishment for an action that is unwanted does not have to happen immediately. In matter of fact, a time lapse before its application is more desirable in being effective in tying the consequence to the action. What is crucial is marking the instant of when the dog goes wrong. Saying ‘no’, using a gruff voice and even a tone on an e-collar are some but not limited to, one’s choices.

The reason the collar is so effective is that the control is precise. It helps little - or should I say, it's less effective - running a dog down and dealing with it 10 minutes after the incident.
People keep referring to the operation of a collar as "punishment". This also adds to the misunderstanding of the use of these things. And also, the reason they are seen in such a negative light. Also being used by numbnuts such as the guy that ips mentioned, lends much to the reason they should not be easily accessible.

[CockerCanuck]

"Some may recall the training videos posted on here of collar conditioned dogs being sent along technical water channels and over jumps on land for retrieves and it was commented on how uncertain and wary the dogs were. And they were pro trainers. "

It is my experience that you can find evidence for just about any argument you want to make on the internet. That there are "uncertain and wary dogs" out there I can not dispute. However I can assure you they have no ribbons.

[ips]

Coincidentally i have just seen an add for a spray collar !!!!
Sprays something as opposed to nicks it, any thoughts on that one ??

Not much use for training bird dogs.

Indeed.
For the record i never even gave a thought to getting one, it was purely coincidental that i saw mention of em, new one on me

[crackerd]

...The wearing of the collar, per se, is academic. If it finds going out with the (bad?) handler to be a scary experience because it gets unexpectedly shocked for no apparent reason then it is going to appear skittish, just as a dog can crawl about on its belly and generally look cowed when out with a heavy handed and inept correctional trainer. But even with a less heavy handed trainer you can get stereotypical behaviour associated with the e collar because if a dog is frequently being ‘ tapped on the shoulder’ when it makes unwanted choices you get a stacking effect and pretty soon the dog gets wary about what it should be doing in case it leads to a nick. Some may recall the training videos posted on here of collar conditioned dogs being sent along technical water channels and over jumps on land for retrieves and it was commented on how uncertain and wary the dogs were. And they were pro trainers.

Naj, "And they were pro trainers" is almost a nonsequitur with e-collar use, because a) all pro trainers aren't created equal, b) pro trainers, particularly retriever pros, can be some of the heaviest-handed e-collar "administrators" out there, and c) if you combine the previous two clauses into a+b=c, you may extrapolate that the most dangerous competitor in a N. American field trial is the amateur, he or particularly she, who has done their own e-collar conditioning over time and with respect to their particular dog - and how it reacts to the collar from a very young age, which ideally is the "level" of current that said dog will "work on" over the course of its competitive lifetime. I am not that dangerous competitor, and cannot speak as that person, but you if ever want to see a dog work with joy and purpose, try training a British Lab for (N. American) field trials and as your boon companion with the e-collar and see what you get in return for meting out "punishment" and "corrections."

MG

[Cass]

A pro trainer is simply someone who trains other people's dogs in exchange for money. Being a "pro" gives zero insight on someone's skill level as a trainer. I could teach your dog to sit for 20 bucks and technically I'd have to call myself a pro trainer in the trial world. I can assure you that my skill level is still on the low end of the spectrum lol