Gundog Training Forum

scot-ish wrote:Thanks for the reply, something to keep an eye on again. Hopefully none of them will be used for breeding.

They are

scot-ish wrote:Thanks for the reply, something to keep an eye on again. Hopefully none of them will be used for breeding.

Sadly they all ready have!

I'm a bit confused, nothing new there, if the dogs have been tested and the results not published, how do we know there are carriers out there? Other than by affected offspring of course. Who is testing and still using their dogs without telling anyone they are carriers thus turning the whole thing into a shambles, just how selfish can you get?

Unfortunately judy, money will take over as a priority. And a high profile dog will attract a lot of attention.

Breeding pre test results cant be helped, but now results are known it changes the thought process on certain things when the dog is still being bred from.

so which dogs are carriers and still being bred from?

I had a pup with AMS...some of you may remember the saga of Jem, posted on here some time ago. She had to be PTS at 10 months. Horrendous condition, no treatment, no cure and PTS the only option. It's so encouraging to read on here that so many are testing. However unless the folk with carrier or affected dogs inform the KC so that an ACCURATE list can be published, breeders will not be able to make informed decisions when planning a mating. I think it's only a matter of time now before buyers of affected or carrier pups will take legal action against breeders when a test is available or if the breeders tested, but kept quiet about the results. Imagine buying a well bred pup from dogs proven in the field and in trials, costing £600-800 but turns out to have AMS or is carrier! I think litigation is inevitable. Let honesty prevail and breed this gene out of working cocker spaniels.

PatG wrote:I had a pup with AMS...some of you may remember the saga of Jem, posted on here some time ago. She had to be PTS at 10 months. Horrendous condition, no treatment, no cure and PTS the only option. It's so encouraging to read on here that so many are testing. However unless the folk with carrier or affected dogs inform the KC so that an ACCURATE list can be published, breeders will not be able to make informed decisions when planning a mating. I think it's only a matter of time now before buyers of affected or carrier pups will take legal action against breeders when a test is available or if the breeders tested, but kept quiet about the results. Imagine buying a well bred pup from dogs proven in the field and in trials, costing £600-800 but turns out to have AMS or is carrier! I think litigation is inevitable. Let honesty prevail and breed this gene out of working cocker spaniels.

Very well put Pat.

I hardly think litigation is inevitable.

Caveat emptor.

You're just as responsible as a buyer as you are a seller.

PatG wrote:I had a pup with AMS...some of you may remember the saga of Jem, posted on here some time ago. She had to be PTS at 10 months. Horrendous condition, no treatment, no cure and PTS the only option. It's so encouraging to read on here that so many are testing. However unless the folk with carrier or affected dogs inform the KC so that an ACCURATE list can be published, breeders will not be able to make informed decisions when planning a mating. I think it's only a matter of time now before buyers of affected or carrier pups will take legal action against breeders when a test is available or if the breeders tested, but kept quiet about the results. Imagine buying a well bred pup from dogs proven in the field and in trials, costing £600-800 but turns out to have AMS or is carrier! I think litigation is inevitable. Let honesty prevail and breed this gene out of working cocker spaniels.

There's nothing wrong with being a carrier and they shouldn't be ruled out from proper breeding programs if it's good enough to breed from in the first place. Also just to add that with knowing some of the lines that have produced affected pups, like Pra not all affected dogs will go on to suffer this problem. While it is a horrid genetic fault we cant rule out using carriers for future breeding just because of that, if the dogs rubbish then of course don't use it but if my bitchs are clear and I rate a stud dog I will use it. We have used carriers in the past, that produced a ftch that tested clear so it then can go on to pass the things we want and need onto the next generation. If like some on here would have done and not used a carrier that line would be at the risk of being totally lost and that will create a much bigger long term problem.
Honesty and sensible breeding is what's needed, not a finger pointing load of nonsense that will actually be of greater harm.
If you buy from untested parents then you get what you get, if you don't to take the risks or financial commitments of testing from scratch then only buy a tested pup. Now I'm not saying you in particular but too many people buy without having done any research or without having any first hand knowledge of what they are buying. In this day and age there's no excuses as Google and forums like this have nearly all the answers to the basic questions. After that it's simply a job of getting out and looking at dogs to see what type you prefer.

Much as I agree with you James - regarding removing carriers from the gene pool - there are simply not enough dogs tested for this for people to make an informed and balanced decision - the numbers as they stand for tested dogs is disappointingly low. Not everyone wants or expects to breed a FTCH - many are looking to breed good sound working dogs which are health tested - currently our choices are severely limited - whatever we are hoping to breed.