Gundog Training Forum

I agree Beechessam and James the buyer has responsibility too and yes should research before buying. I knew exactly what I wanted when I bought Jem......well bred, but not too hot for me as a novice, from a good dam and sire from well known kennels. I researched both kennels, a friend has a good springer from one of them and I saw a video of the sire performing on his owners website.I also wanted a docked cocker (it's illegal to dock in Scotland). Jem seemed to tick all my boxes. The mistake I made was assuming that well bred dogs from known kennels would produce healthy pups...silly me ......and I paid the price for that error.
No finger pointing intended as AMS was apparently little known then, although my vet suspected it on our first visit at 5 months, but no reason not to know the status of breeding dogs prior to breeding now, as a test is now available. Honesty and integrity is required though to publish the results...not just the clear ones...so that breeders can make informed decisions.
Agree if good stock is limited carriers can be used with clears but this risks 50% of the pups being carriers and unless there are some restrictions put on the buyers regarding breeding of these pups, the gene will remain in the population.
It is my opinion that litigation, if not inevitable, is highly likely. Maybe that would get the attention of commercial breeders and 'hobby' breeders who breed their dogs as to the seriousness of AMS.
BTW when I could face getting another pup, I bought a springer, from health tested parents. My experience with Jem was a hard way to learn a lesson.

beechessam wrote:I hardly think litigation is inevitable.

Caveat emptor.

You're just as responsible as a buyer as you are a seller.

I agree buyers are responsible for researching what they're getting and being demanding of breeders.

But if it is true that people are testing dogs, finding they are carriers, then breeding from them without making that abundantly clear then they are most certainly opening themselves up to litigation. They would be on incredibly dodgy ground if they had tested and hidden that fact. They should expect to be sued, and to lose.

I appreciate that people have a lot vested in their lines, and that their reputation is important to them, but you only have to look at the good examples set recently by a few people who tested, got bad results and took the steps to inform first puppy owners and second everyone else to see that it should not be a fatal blow to their lines. That sort of behaviour only enhances their reputation.

It is important to note that it's not true to say that 50% of a carrier to clear litter will be carriers. This is confusing population distribution and probability. (By the same logic all litters would always be 50% male and 50% female). You have no idea what mix will come out – and there could be a wealth of fantastic clear pups to breed from, or even carriers to breed against other tested clear dogs in future. I see no problem breeding from carriers to known clear dogs - as James says it is important to carry on good lines. What would be wrong with breeding a carrier to a clear and putting breeding restrictions on all the pups so they couldn’t then be bred from unless testing had been done?

We have the tools at our disposal to eradicate several genetic diseases through sound science without also harming our ability to breed for the attributes we want in our dogs. Why on earth use a nice sharp tool in such a blunt and unskilled manner?

Question for those of you who have tested for more than one condition with Antagene - did you get all your certificates through at once?? I had my results for FN through yesterday, but still waiting for AMS to arrive. I'm starting to worry that they've forgotten to run that test, as I expected to get all the results in one email??

No, a couple of days between

Phew - thanks James! Let the nervous thumb twiddling continue....

You can check online via their website what the staus of each test.

Brilliant, I didn't know that! Thanks scot-ish!

Ftw ionicland thunder storm tested clear for AMS also now.

James wrote:Ftw ionicland thunder storm tested clear for AMS also now.

Great news.

4 more AMS carriers added to the Cocker data base today.