Judy, I've asked them in just about every post, explain the accurate tests, everyone has rubbished the tests, it's because this it's because that it's because it's just for fun it's because it's made by somebody just to make money, ok, you know tests where it's not accurate, just explain the accurate ones, that's all I ask.Judy wrote:Think its been so long you need to ask your questions again, DR.
Credible Cockers!
Re: Credible Cockers!
Re: Credible Cockers!
So when the test isn't as accurate as some would like it's because the teat is flawed and it's not designed for this or that and it's dismissed out of hand but the accurate ones are just "a trend"?Sgurr wrote:DR I think most of us who are concerned about integrity with breeding are looking at DNA Profiles from AHT.
Please accept that the Wisdom results may show a trend but they will not stand up legally.
I have tried to explain and I am now saying there is no point continuing the discussion with you as the situation has moved on.
OK.
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scot-ish
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Re: Credible Cockers!
90 dogs form the cocker sample base.
Of them 90, some are show- and some are 'field' as wisdom has stated.
DR why are you so hung up on the 3 tested by andy, surely if they are correct, the ones of boots etc are correct- then when suspect lines come back full cocker they must be correct- but yourself among others on FB are so quick to state the suspect ones with 'full cocker' results- must be falsified pedigrees.
When the same dog tested twice comes back wi 2 seperate results, an closely bred dogs show complete seperate results, as well as linebred dogs results showing 1 half springer an the other cocker- how are we all supposed to take this test serious???
There is only 1 winner from all this, and thats Wisdom.
Of them 90, some are show- and some are 'field' as wisdom has stated.
DR why are you so hung up on the 3 tested by andy, surely if they are correct, the ones of boots etc are correct- then when suspect lines come back full cocker they must be correct- but yourself among others on FB are so quick to state the suspect ones with 'full cocker' results- must be falsified pedigrees.
When the same dog tested twice comes back wi 2 seperate results, an closely bred dogs show complete seperate results, as well as linebred dogs results showing 1 half springer an the other cocker- how are we all supposed to take this test serious???
There is only 1 winner from all this, and thats Wisdom.
An Argumentative Bugger
Re: Credible Cockers!
It appears you have a touch of selective vision the same as the others. Must be contagious.Dawnrazor wrote:I understand what you are saying about numbers tested Naj, Miesque seems to Base thier dismissive attitude of the test on 5 tests, I know for a fact there been many many more than that, Platty's had double that done himself!!! That's only one person.
Miesque also mentioned 3 tests that weren't accurate, fair enough, happy to accept that as I've said.
The questions i have asked that everyone has skipped around is...........OK, I'll make it simple, if the tests are rubbish, please please please explain the accurate ones.
Did you read my second paragraph .... the tests are not intended to refute KC registration papers nor are they intended to determine or validate whether a particular dog is purebred! This from the company and I can take no credit for it because Somebody else With an enquiringly mind did the legwork and did the obvious in asking the company what the limitations of its own test is for. Everyone has access to read this on Proper Cockers but some are just ignoring it presumably because it doesn't fit into their argument. Naj
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scot-ish
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Re: Credible Cockers!
Hi Naj,
it seems you are another who is looking from the outside without a vested interest- its refreshing to see people are looking further than the guilty verdict based on a £40 DNA test that in its own right stated it is not intended to determine a purebred dog, but itself is merely for fun for people who have a cross breed and are interested in the make up without expecting bang on results.
the company itself details on their website as you have mentioned above.
the sample base for this test is 90 dogs for cockers, 22000 were registered this year, average that over 10 (rough lifetime of a dog, favouring on a shorter life to remove further questions) that gives a sample base of less than half a percent -but people are all jumping on the test and how accurate it must be.
i must add off those 90 - Mars have told me all they can tell are those dogs are from the UK and America, and they are also from "field lines" and "show lines" of English Cocker spaniel - that in itself tells me the company has no real knowledge of the breed, nor the difference in a show to a Working Cocker.
from that alone i know where i wont be spending my £40 to £60 for a test.
it seems you are another who is looking from the outside without a vested interest- its refreshing to see people are looking further than the guilty verdict based on a £40 DNA test that in its own right stated it is not intended to determine a purebred dog, but itself is merely for fun for people who have a cross breed and are interested in the make up without expecting bang on results.
the company itself details on their website as you have mentioned above.
the sample base for this test is 90 dogs for cockers, 22000 were registered this year, average that over 10 (rough lifetime of a dog, favouring on a shorter life to remove further questions) that gives a sample base of less than half a percent -but people are all jumping on the test and how accurate it must be.
i must add off those 90 - Mars have told me all they can tell are those dogs are from the UK and America, and they are also from "field lines" and "show lines" of English Cocker spaniel - that in itself tells me the company has no real knowledge of the breed, nor the difference in a show to a Working Cocker.
from that alone i know where i wont be spending my £40 to £60 for a test.
An Argumentative Bugger
Re: Credible Cockers!
They're not accurate they just fit the allegation. Not the same thing at all.
Re: Credible Cockers!
Ok DR, this will be very basic and I have no doubt others on here will be able to explain better than me but here goes;
When a dog has something like some types of PRA, CLAD in Irish Setters, AMS or any other genetic abnormality which creates a disease, scientists take samples of the affected dogs and go through their DNA with a fine tooth comb looking for an abnormality which shows up in all the affected dogs two copies of this faulty gene and the dog is affected, one copy and the dog is a carrier. The fault is always in the same area on the dogs' DNA (for each given disease). Thus the test becomes pretty accurate only failing if the sample wasn't taken properly or handled correctly or a failure of the part of the person doing the checking. Each inherited disease has its own faulty gene(s) which can be pinpointed accurately, a signature if you like.
The tests which determine parentage, I think, compare the gene profile of each parent and their offspring these have certain similarities which unrelated animals wont have.
The Wisdom Test, on the other hand has a baseline of sampled Cockers taken from God knows where and compares samples we send in with these original samples. Unless they have taken vast numbers of samples from a wide range of dogs of differing breeding they don't have much to compare with. They go by an average (as I understand it) profile, in order for this to be anything like accurate Springers and Cockers would have to have been entirely separate breeds for rather longer than they have - given that these "injections'' of Springer blood appear to have been an ongoing thing since forever. There simply isn't enough difference between Cockers and Springers for it to be totally reliable.
Factor in the possibility of cheating on every side of the argument and the fact that not all results have been published and, perhaps, you can see where this argument is going...
When a dog has something like some types of PRA, CLAD in Irish Setters, AMS or any other genetic abnormality which creates a disease, scientists take samples of the affected dogs and go through their DNA with a fine tooth comb looking for an abnormality which shows up in all the affected dogs two copies of this faulty gene and the dog is affected, one copy and the dog is a carrier. The fault is always in the same area on the dogs' DNA (for each given disease). Thus the test becomes pretty accurate only failing if the sample wasn't taken properly or handled correctly or a failure of the part of the person doing the checking. Each inherited disease has its own faulty gene(s) which can be pinpointed accurately, a signature if you like.
The tests which determine parentage, I think, compare the gene profile of each parent and their offspring these have certain similarities which unrelated animals wont have.
The Wisdom Test, on the other hand has a baseline of sampled Cockers taken from God knows where and compares samples we send in with these original samples. Unless they have taken vast numbers of samples from a wide range of dogs of differing breeding they don't have much to compare with. They go by an average (as I understand it) profile, in order for this to be anything like accurate Springers and Cockers would have to have been entirely separate breeds for rather longer than they have - given that these "injections'' of Springer blood appear to have been an ongoing thing since forever. There simply isn't enough difference between Cockers and Springers for it to be totally reliable.
Factor in the possibility of cheating on every side of the argument and the fact that not all results have been published and, perhaps, you can see where this argument is going...
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Re: Credible Cockers!
Naj, that's all very interesting but it's answering questions I haven't asked!!Naj wrote:It appears you have a touch of selective vision the same as the others. Must be contagious.Dawnrazor wrote:I understand what you are saying about numbers tested Naj, Miesque seems to Base thier dismissive attitude of the test on 5 tests, I know for a fact there been many many more than that, Platty's had double that done himself!!! That's only one person.
Miesque also mentioned 3 tests that weren't accurate, fair enough, happy to accept that as I've said.
The questions i have asked that everyone has skipped around is...........OK, I'll make it simple, if the tests are rubbish, please please please explain the accurate ones.
Naj
There's plenty of posts saying how crap the test is, how it only costs forty quid, how it can't find out what some people are trying to find out, how the Kc do t recognise it and blah blah blah!!!
The only question I've asked is why does the test come on as many occasions accurate?? That's all.
I've seen heard heard of results that have not accurate, Miesque quotes I think 3, I have accepted that at face value, no argument, I seen emails of about a dozen now that have been consistent in finding no cocker blood in springers and springer blood in some cocker lines, I'm only asking how this can be, if it's that crap and inexpensive surley it would come back as "you have a English Springer Spaniel x Boxer" or "collie" or whatever!!!
There has to be some level of accuracy in the test for spaniels to found to be spaniels, I'm wondering how this is?
Re: Credible Cockers!
Thanks Judy, but all the answers are about how the negatives come about not why some are coming back accurate?Judy wrote:Ok DR, this will be very basic and I have no doubt others on here will be able to explain better than me but here goes;
When a dog has something like some types of PRA, CLAD in Irish Setters, AMS or any other genetic abnormality which creates a disease, scientists take samples of the affected dogs and go through their DNA with a fine tooth comb looking for an abnormality which shows up in all the affected dogs two copies of this faulty gene and the dog is affected, one copy and the dog is a carrier. The fault is always in the same area on the dogs' DNA (for each given disease). Thus the test becomes pretty accurate only failing if the sample wasn't taken properly or handled correctly or a failure of the part of the person doing the checking. Each inherited disease has its own faulty gene(s) which can be pinpointed accurately, a signature if you like.
The tests which determine parentage, I think, compare the gene profile of each parent and their offspring these have certain similarities which unrelated animals wont have.
The Wisdom Test, on the other hand has a baseline of sampled Cockers taken from God knows where and compares samples we send in with these original samples. Unless they have taken vast numbers of samples from a wide range of dogs of differing breeding they don't have much to compare with. They go by an average (as I understand it) profile, in order for this to be anything like accurate Springers and Cockers would have to have been entirely separate breeds for rather longer than they have - given that these "injections'' of Springer blood appear to have been an ongoing thing since forever. There simply isn't enough difference between Cockers and Springers for it to be totally reliable.
Factor in the possibility of cheating on every side of the argument and the fact that not all results have been published and, perhaps, you can see where this argument is going...
Re: Credible Cockers!
I'm not hung up on any, I'm only going from the ones I'm aware of, what other ones would I know about?!!!scot-ish wrote:90 dogs form the cocker sample base.
Of them 90, some are show- and some are 'field' as wisdom has stated.
DR why are you so hung up on the 3 tested by andy, surely if they are correct, the ones of boots etc are correct- then when suspect lines come back full cocker they must be correct- but yourself among others on FB are so quick to state the suspect ones with 'full cocker' results- must be falsified pedigrees.
When the same dog tested twice comes back wi 2 seperate results, an closely bred dogs show complete seperate results, as well as linebred dogs results showing 1 half springer an the other cocker- how are we all supposed to take this test serious???
There is only 1 winner from all this, and thats Wisdom.
Again, the test is crap and cheap, I get that's how ma y feel, but what about the ones that have Co.e back accu..............never mind.