AMS in cockers.

[Teddy]

4 more AMS carriers added to the Cocker data base today.

Very good that folk are submitting those results. You've got to wonder how many people are staying quiet...hopefully the results will be automatically uploaded soon!

That's my boy Caramello Chomp just tested clear.

Good for you for testing.

[Stevie]

only 8 correctly diagnosed cases as AMS. a whole lot more misdiagnosed with Acral lick, and more just PTS because it was unknown.

the big thing is the increased testing and the exposure, the more of that, the easier it "should" become to eradicate it from the breed with careful consideration when mating.

Confirmed cases 8 that's a fact

You cannot say more were misdiagnosed or destroyed because it was unknown because that's purely guess work and assumption. Research and scientific results are based on fact.

The problem exists, it needs to be addressed but I firmly believe there is very little understanding of it and most of what we are hearing is guess work. Accurate information is needed because it all seems a little grey at the moment.

I was told this week that an affected dog may never display symptoms, if this is the case then there could be lots of affected dogs out there, but if they don't display symptoms then a more accurate test is needed to find truly affected dog.

What in your eyes would be a more accurate test for diagnosing AMS Beechessam?

[beechessam]

If I was a biologist, a scientist or an expert in genetic diseases and disorders I could answer that fully.

However I am none of those.

A test that is factual, one that confirms a dog is affected and will sadly suffer the affliction, or is a carrier and will pass the defective gene.

Is that too much to ask in a test?

As its stands, despite the fact we are being told only low levels of dogs are being tested the figures just don't stack up and I hope they never do!

[Miesque]

A test that is factual, one that confirms a dog is affected and will sadly suffer the affliction, or is a carrier and will pass the defective gene.

This is exactly what the genetic test does - the dog carries one or two copies of the mutation or it doesn't carry any. No ambiguity there. Of course there are undiagnosed dogs and misdiagnosed dogs. Saying there isn't just because a number can not be applied to them is ridiculous.

[Amberquest]

If I was a biologist, a scientist or an expert in genetic diseases and disorders I could answer that fully.

However I am none of those.

A test that is factual, one that confirms a dog is affected and will sadly suffer the affliction, or is a carrier and will pass the defective gene.

Is that too much to ask in a test?

As its stands, despite the fact we are being told only low levels of dogs are being tested the figures just don't stack up and I hope they never do!

Can't argue with the genetic test in terms of the gene being present Simon, what you've heard about some affected not displaying symptoms of it could also be true to an extent, but more than likely will be an individual dogs ability to cope with it. If you look at cystic fibrosis in humans which is a genetic condition, all sufferers of the disease are affected/treated/suffer it in different ways.

The difficulty with recessive conditions is that because the cocker spaniel population is so large, it will take an awful lot of bad luck for the condition to show up. Apologies for using a human example here but approx. 2.5 million people carry the recessive gene for cystic fibrosis, that's around 1 in 25 of us in the UK. However despite so many people having the gene, only 0.05% ish actually suffer the condition.

I think it's fair to say that the human population is less inbred than cockers, unless of course you're from somewhere like Dorset or Yorkshire , and therefore the likelihood of this recessive condition popping up is increased.

As it stands on the CSDB, 175 are confirmed as clear, 19 are carriers and 6 are affected. That's approximately 3% of the current tested population which are affected and 9.5% are carriers. So although the odds are higher than those of the example given above of cystic fibrosis, given the smaller gene pool and use of line breeding I'd expect the odds to be slightly higher.

Of course this is all statistics based, and even two carriers could produce an all clear litter.

[beechessam]

So with 9.5% of dogs carriers and as we now know some very prominent names among them I am very surprised that only 8 confirmed cases in 8 years have bee recorded.

One dog under scrutiny at the moment has been the top sire at the Championships for at least a couple of years, so its fair to assume that his progeny have also produced pups, they qualified for the Championships, at a minimum they will be OFTW and most if not all will have produced sought after pups of their own. Yet still only 8 cases?

If a dog is diagnosed affected yet does not display symptoms is it really affected?

I just think there is so much more that needs to be discovered before dogs, people and affixes are dragged through the mud and demonised.

[scot-ish]

So with 9.5% of dogs carriers and as we now know some very prominent names among them I am very surprised that only 8 confirmed cases in 8 years have bee recorded.

One dog under scrutiny at the moment has been the top sire at the Championships for at least a couple of years, so its fair to assume that his progeny have also produced pups, they qualified for the Championships, at a minimum they will be OFTW and most if not all will have produced sought after pups of their own. Yet still only 8 cases?

If a dog is diagnosed affected yet does not display symptoms is it really affected?

I just think there is so much more that needs to be discovered before dogs, people and affixes are dragged through the mud and demonised.

Remember if that dog is a carrier. then he never mated to another carrier. on the average, 25% of the litter will be carriers. average litter of 8 thats only 2 carriers.

that means there is a 25% chance of his offspring being tested.

what do you mean by symptoms? the syptoms of AMS are loss of feeling in the nerve endings in the extremities. some dogs deal with this by the need for chewing etc, as there is no pain from it.

sensory neuropath does not mean dog chews its feet off.
as scott has explained, each affected person with a disease deals with it differently.

[James]

Just a note regarding people not reporting g carriers, they may well be but just not doing what ever it is you have to do for the kc to publish it. We test and I've never informed the kc simply because I can't be bothered, I use the results for my breeding plans and post them on my gundog page on Facebook so not hiding it either. Some of us are juSt a bit crap at paperwork that's all.

[Amberquest]

I don't think it's the dogs you're talking about simon

[beechessam]

So with 9.5% of dogs carriers and as we now know some very prominent names among them I am very surprised that only 8 confirmed cases in 8 years have bee recorded.

One dog under scrutiny at the moment has been the top sire at the Championships for at least a couple of years, so its fair to assume that his progeny have also produced pups, they qualified for the Championships, at a minimum they will be OFTW and most if not all will have produced sought after pups of their own. Yet still only 8 cases?

If a dog is diagnosed affected yet does not display symptoms is it really affected?

I just think there is so much more that needs to be discovered before dogs, people and affixes are dragged through the mud and demonised.

what is that dog if you don't mind me asking? you mean will's dog? and putting sweeps carrier status onto him? i would not, i would put sweeps status to his Dam.
the other link to his dogs father, I also think come from the dams side of those affected dogs.

i might be putting my neck on the line here, i know most of the signs do point to his lines, but i dont believe it his, i think his dogs have been bread to carrier bitches. otherwise the number of bitches those two dogs have covered, we would be seeing more affected dogs.

remember if that dog is a carrier. then he never mated to another carrier. on the average, 25% of the litter will be carriers. average litter of 8 thats only 2 carriers.

that means there is a 25% chance of his offspring being tested.

what do you mean by symptoms? the syptoms of AMS are loss of feeling in the nerve endings in the extremities. some dogs deal with this by the need for chewing etc, as there is no pain from it.

sensory neuropath does not mean dog chews its feet off.
as scott has explained, each affected person with a disease deals with it differently.

I won't name names because as I keep saying repeatedly NOT ENOUGH IS KNOWN! Therefore I cannot know enough to say names because I don't know either. I'm trying to understand how the figures work, because right now they just don't seem to stack.

So now it's the Dam line, ok, but here's the dilemma, others say it's the sires line. So this just shows not enough is known for anyone to make any kind of statement.

This disease does worry me, particularly given the breeding of my bitch and recent developments, I will test but like many and unlike many more I'm prepared to admit I'm bloody scared of it also.