Crufts 'gundogs'

[vicky payne]

Don't give up! I'm gonna take Quincy again next year. He'll be 11 1/2 but he's still working every day dogging in and most Saturdays beating so he'll qualify

[pontbeck]

I've held back commenting on Crufts as it has caused me getting some stick in the past.
I think there is a good argument for the American cocker being moved to another group such as Utility or Toy as it's appearance and presentation is out of line with the other gun dog breeds and other than Pam's I've never heard of or seen one out working. It was an excellent example of the breed and when judging one doesn't judge dog against dog but the dog against the breed standard, so I presume the group judge thought it more typical and closest to the standard than the other gun dogs.
The line up for best in show was one of the best I've seen for a while with only the Rottie , a bit of a muddy colour, with little tan colouring and the Irish wolf hound, which was less than enthusiastic in the big ring, a little disappointing to me.
Someone has previously commented that the Poodle was favourite for the top spot even before the show began. That's quite correct, the Poodle was the top winning dog of 2013 and therefore a favourite for BIS. At each championship show points are awarded by the Kennel club for winning or being placed in a group and for winning BIS and the Poodle was a stand away winner so it was no surprise ,as it would take a very brave man to disagree with all the previous judges that thought so highly of it during the previous year, especially how it behaved in the ring. Don't get me wrong looking at it in that cut made me feel nauseous but it was a terrific mover and showed it's self to perfection.
Many years ago the top winning dog was an Airedale and again a strong favourite for BIS at Crufts. An eminent judge of the time had an interest in an Irish setter which could have been strong competition for the Airedale but the match for BIS didn't materialise as the Airedale didn't even make it out of it's breed. The judge of Airedales at Crufts that year, non other than the eminent judge with the interest in the Irish setter, which did end up BIS.

[Merlin]

I recorded it and watched last night.
The thing that annoys me most about it is how the commentators keep telling us that "these dogs are bred for a full days work" and all that tosh..
The fact is that a lot of them are either ridiculous exaggerations of what they were originally designed to do or just wouldn't have a clue...

I hate people trying to secretly "sell" things to me and that's all that's happening when the presenters try to describe how "fit for purpose" the dogs are, they're obviously scripted by the KC to try and placate everyone following on from reports such as the Panorama documentary...

I don't mind dogs being dogs for dogs own sake, but for goodness sake give it a rest !!!


(perhaps I should've put this in the random rant section..)

[crackerd]

Many years ago the top winning dog was an Airedale and again a strong favourite for BIS at Crufts. An eminent judge of the time had an interest in an Irish setter which could have been strong competition for the Airedale but the match for BIS didn't materialise as the Airedale didn't even make it out of it's breed. The judge of Airedales at Crufts that year, non other than the eminent judge with the interest in the Irish setter, which did end up BIS.

Bill, are you implying that Crufts and dog shows over there are "in league" with cricket on the match fixing end of things?

The only "fixing" we have in our dog shows is fixing far too big a supper bowl for our "English" (a k a show) Labradors. Holy blubber of Christmas! http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums ... stminister

No disrespect meant with the pejorative "English Labs" either - that's what the show fancy call them over here, but of course plenty of more "fitting" euphemisms can be found for them too. I've gone so far as imploring the fancy to petition for an official name change to "Flabrador Retriever" for dog shows.

MG

[Strathcraig]

In other news, the BIS was the product of a half brother/half sister mating... wait till Jemima whatsherface and Panorama find that out...

[pontbeck]

MG, The first time I visited the States was to watch a dog show, in Santa Rosa. The politics are no different on your side of the pond.

[crackerd]

Johnners - and Babe Ruth - would say you hit that for six, old man!

MG

[Alice]

I've held back commenting on Crufts as it has caused me getting some stick in the past.
I think there is a good argument for the American cocker being moved to another group such as Utility or Toy as it's appearance and presentation is out of line with the other gun dog breeds and other than Pam's I've never heard of or seen one out working. It was an excellent example of the breed and when judging one doesn't judge dog against dog but the dog against the breed standard, so I presume the group judge thought it more typical and closest to the standard than the other gun dogs.

I enjoy hearing from you when it comes to showing Bill as I understand you have a lot of experience in that area and it is good to get that perspective.

I would strongly agree that the American Cocker should be moved to the Toy group. There are as many Cavaliers working as gundogs as there are American cockers these days!

I also tend to think that people making a fuss about 'NONE OF THE DOGS IN THE GUNDOG GROUP LOOK LIKE GUNDOGS!' are slightly missing the point, or rather not broadening the point widely enough- it's not just the Gundog group, its true with the collies, the mastiffs, the rotties, the GSDs, the dobermans, the beagles....I could go on! All of these breeds in their 'show' form look like show dogs, not their intended purpose.

Judges can only judge what's in front of them.

[pontbeck]

If you want to own and show a working dog you owe a duty to the breed to see first hand what is required when the dogs are at work . I chaired a terrier breed club and tried to get the members to have a day out with a local hunt to see why the dogs should be so conformed. Unfortunately the majority were only interested in the showing and not the history of the working aspect. To try to interpret the breed standard without having any knowledge of what a day out working compromises is a recipe for disaster .

[crackerd]

If you want to own and show a working dog you owe a duty to the breed to see first hand what is required when the dogs are at work . I chaired a terrier breed club and tried to get the members to have a day out with a local hunt to see why the dogs should be so conformed. Unfortunately the majority were only interested in the showing and not the history of the working aspect. To try to interpret the breed standard without having any knowledge of what a day out working compromises is a recipe for disaster .

I enjoy hearing from you when it comes to showing Bill as I understand you have a lot of experience in that area and it is good to get that perspective.

I would strongly agree that the American Cocker should be moved to the Toy group. There are as many Cavaliers working as gundogs as there are American cockers these days!

Alice, Bill - where we're having the flip side of such a "move" over here is with poodles. They are now eligible for retriever "hunt tests" (and possibly someday field trials) and entering in increasing numbers, yet remain in the "Non-Sporting Group" for classification. Is there or has there ever been any talk of moving the poodle to the gundog group over there? - and I don't mean just the standard poodle, but I think over here anything over 12-13 inches would be eligible for a go at gundog events.

Would also have to say, based on my own unscientific sampling (but from running all kinds of hunt tests and trials), that there are decidedly more American cockers than Sussex or Clumbers or fieldies in our spaniel hunt tests. Not that it's any great distinction or that any number of them have distinguished themselves afield (though some have), but to wager that any reclassification (of the American cocker) outside UK jurisdiction would meet with great protest, I'm sure.

MG