Playing Devil's Advocate, could it not be a sign of the "suspect" pedigree/breeding of the line? There's no guarantee that the dogs match the pedigree you're given? This seems to be recording problem, possibly more likley than scientists mucking up tests?James wrote:I think its only fair that to balance things out that there have been dogs tested from this breeding by the same company and they have come back 100% cockers. So there's clearly a problem with the reliability of such tests.
Credible Cockers!
Re: Credible Cockers!
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beechessam
- Member
- Posts: 935
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Re: Credible Cockers!
The only definitive way to prove or disprove the rumours will be to test the patents and progeny. You'll then know if the pup came from the parents. Quite simple, there will be no doubt. If pups have been registered incorrectly it will show. Then it can be addressed or dismissed and we can all move on!
I predict another summer of conflict that will make the last one like like tea at the palace!
I predict another summer of conflict that will make the last one like like tea at the palace!
Re: Credible Cockers!
"Not so long ago"? Was it not about 1908 ish that cockers and springers and cockers were separated by weight?? Maybe Wullie or Judy will remember the exact date?!!Naj wrote:When you consider that not long ago cockers and springers came out of the same litter and were only separated by weight distinction you have a point. I've been invited into a fb group by this woman as have many others but not sure where it can all go given that the company says the tests don't support legal action. Makes you wonder what the point of them is. I was also under the impression that the 3 generation graphics that they produce is just an example of where the springer blood might come from and not a precise rendition of it.
As regards paying your money and being happy with the results, any outcross has been done to produce dogs with a competitive advantage and that's plain wrong. And if you buy a cockerpoo for an exorbitant amount of money you know what you're paying for but when you pay good money for a cocker from a reputable breeder who has introduced springer blood then that's plain wrong. And if you're content that it's ok because you're onto a winner then what's the pleasure in winning with a dog like that.
Naj
I totally agree with your second paragraph.
Re: Credible Cockers!
Yep, agree with all of that. The difficulties will be dogs bred over the last say 10 years but no reason as of 2018 that can't happen, and indeed should.beechessam wrote:The only definitive way to prove or disprove the rumours will be to test the patents and progeny. You'll then know if the pup came from the parents. Quite simple, there will be no doubt. If pups have been registered incorrectly it will show. Then it can be addressed or dismissed and we can all move on!
I predict another summer of conflict that will make the last one like like tea at the palace!
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beechessam
- Member
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:07 pm
Re: Credible Cockers!
Just look at dogs in the last 5 years, if there has been any wrong doing, that will be more than a few pups!
Find the man innocent or guilty with proof!
The rumour mud slinging and infighting does nothing for the breed or sport!
I am amazed it's not been resolved when it's a fairly simple thing to do.
Find the man innocent or guilty with proof!
The rumour mud slinging and infighting does nothing for the breed or sport!
I am amazed it's not been resolved when it's a fairly simple thing to do.
Re: Credible Cockers!
I'm not into Cockers so I have no axe to grind.
Dnafor breed - difficult. Dna for parentage is accepted.
On the Rytex website a few hours ago, frozen semen was beinig offered for 4 cocker studs including Danderw Druid and Darnell Dealer so parentage from these two could be easily established if Rytex wanted to clear their name.
On facebook, the credible cockers page, it has been ponted out that the breeder until a couple of years ago (when he died) was always named as Ian Openshaw's father who lived in Wigan. Why? The Rytex website saya dogs are bred there.
For my ESS Glen's first litter, 2005, I had left him with friends on the understanding that if their bitch came into season while I was away for two months, they had my permission to use him as stud. They did and were also very careful to point out that at that time the KC form required the stud owner to say the mating had been witnessed by said owner. I signed as Glen put his very proud paw up to say the pups were his. Glen is Dna profiled so I had no worries but even then I thought the KC were dinosaurs and the system was open to fraud on a big scale.
Just watching and waiting to see how the KC handle this.
Dnafor breed - difficult. Dna for parentage is accepted.
On the Rytex website a few hours ago, frozen semen was beinig offered for 4 cocker studs including Danderw Druid and Darnell Dealer so parentage from these two could be easily established if Rytex wanted to clear their name.
On facebook, the credible cockers page, it has been ponted out that the breeder until a couple of years ago (when he died) was always named as Ian Openshaw's father who lived in Wigan. Why? The Rytex website saya dogs are bred there.
For my ESS Glen's first litter, 2005, I had left him with friends on the understanding that if their bitch came into season while I was away for two months, they had my permission to use him as stud. They did and were also very careful to point out that at that time the KC form required the stud owner to say the mating had been witnessed by said owner. I signed as Glen put his very proud paw up to say the pups were his. Glen is Dna profiled so I had no worries but even then I thought the KC were dinosaurs and the system was open to fraud on a big scale.
Just watching and waiting to see how the KC handle this.
Re: Credible Cockers!
"Just watching and waiting to see how the KC handle this"
I don't think they will. If anyone had witnessed the alledged main protagonists and the kennel club hierarchy together at the recent Kennel club open cocker trial you would see they are as thick as thieves.
Beechessam is so right. This could have been well on the way to being resolved, instead the breed continues to get dragged further into the mire.
I don't think they will. If anyone had witnessed the alledged main protagonists and the kennel club hierarchy together at the recent Kennel club open cocker trial you would see they are as thick as thieves.
Beechessam is so right. This could have been well on the way to being resolved, instead the breed continues to get dragged further into the mire.
Re: Credible Cockers!
As others have said it could easily be sorted out but that would require the main 'suspects' (has anyone actually been named?) to volunteer to have their dogs tested. You can't force them. You could require every breeding dog to be tested but can't see the kc doing anything.
The kids are watching The Jeremy Kyle show and his lie detectors. Just had a thought ...
Naj
The kids are watching The Jeremy Kyle show and his lie detectors. Just had a thought ...
Naj
Re: Credible Cockers!
Some years ago, when the KC came up with the Accredited breeder's scheme, it was originally a requirement that breeding stock was dna profilled but that was very quickly dropped as that was rather unpopular
DNA profiling is a requirement by many KC's and you can't get a litter registered if it hasn't been done. One of my lab dogs which has been booked for stud by a Dutch bitch owner and by an Italian bitch owner, has now been DNA profiled at the "great cost" of ..... £30! it's a requirement to get the future litters registered with the overseas KC.. I suppose, I'll have to do the same with my cocker bitch plus also the usual health tests and perhaps the much discussed DNA test should I want to breed from her.
I certainly would feel a bit cheesed off if I suddenly discovered that most of my pure labs had in fact other retriever blood crossed in over the mostt recent 3-4 generations
Natasha
DNA profiling is a requirement by many KC's and you can't get a litter registered if it hasn't been done. One of my lab dogs which has been booked for stud by a Dutch bitch owner and by an Italian bitch owner, has now been DNA profiled at the "great cost" of ..... £30! it's a requirement to get the future litters registered with the overseas KC.. I suppose, I'll have to do the same with my cocker bitch plus also the usual health tests and perhaps the much discussed DNA test should I want to breed from her.
I certainly would feel a bit cheesed off if I suddenly discovered that most of my pure labs had in fact other retriever blood crossed in over the mostt recent 3-4 generations
Natasha
Re: Credible Cockers!
[quote="Naj"
As regards paying your money and being happy with the results, any outcross has been done to produce dogs with a competitive advantage and that's plain wrong. And if you buy a cockerpoo for an exorbitant amount of money you know what you're paying for but when you pay good money for a cocker from a reputable breeder who has introduced springer blood then that's plain wrong. And if you're content that it's ok because you're onto a winner then what's thepleasure in winning with a dog like that.
Naj[/quote]
Money,its as simple as that.Its in print why the person at the centre of this as gone into cockers more than springers,"because there's more money in them".
All i know is people were making these sort of accusations about me,and my honesty,and integrity,i d be doing everything possible to prove them wrong,and clear this business up,once and for all.I find it so annoying that a breed i m very passionate about is being ruined in one way or another.There should be a diversity in the two breeds.As things are going there soon won't be.I attended a trial recently where one or two of these dogs of the suspect lines were competing,they are certainly different from what i d call a good cocker.Long in leg,narrow based,and when hunting more arse movement than Beyoncé.Now whether this is do to adding springer blood,who knows.As for the K C doing anything about it,not a chance in hell.
As regards paying your money and being happy with the results, any outcross has been done to produce dogs with a competitive advantage and that's plain wrong. And if you buy a cockerpoo for an exorbitant amount of money you know what you're paying for but when you pay good money for a cocker from a reputable breeder who has introduced springer blood then that's plain wrong. And if you're content that it's ok because you're onto a winner then what's thepleasure in winning with a dog like that.
Naj[/quote]
Money,its as simple as that.Its in print why the person at the centre of this as gone into cockers more than springers,"because there's more money in them".
All i know is people were making these sort of accusations about me,and my honesty,and integrity,i d be doing everything possible to prove them wrong,and clear this business up,once and for all.I find it so annoying that a breed i m very passionate about is being ruined in one way or another.There should be a diversity in the two breeds.As things are going there soon won't be.I attended a trial recently where one or two of these dogs of the suspect lines were competing,they are certainly different from what i d call a good cocker.Long in leg,narrow based,and when hunting more arse movement than Beyoncé.Now whether this is do to adding springer blood,who knows.As for the K C doing anything about it,not a chance in hell.