Gundog Training Forum

What is it you like about Flatcoats over Labs Judy, I've never seen the attraction my self.

No doubt Judy will give her reasons but I would have liked to have owned a flatcoat . I stuck to labs because getting a good lab pup was fairly easy but getting a good flatcoat pup was a bit difficult even 40 plus years ago. I have always liked the flatcoats "style" of working .....provided it had been well trained. The not so well trained ones were not as good as a not so well trained lab !

The way in which field trials and field tests are judged did not really suit a flatcoats style of work as , in general, the breed was not and is not a "handle onto a sixpence" sort of dog. I must be one of the very few retriever trial judges to have ever given a flattie an award in a field trial. On the occasion that this happened I had to argue quite strongly for that flatcoat as the other judges were "typical" lab men who wanted to see only a typical lab style of work.

The flattie I liked had done well throughout the trial but it had done so in a "looser/free-er" manner to the labs.

I like the way labs work but I can see that the flatcoats way of working/hunting has it's advantages too. It is a breed that would have suited me well for the picking up I do where handling onto a sixpence is actually quite impossible ! Flat coats are , or at least were, very good hunters. I do not think I'd want a flattie nowadays, the show folk have had them for far too long and very few show folk work their dogs ......or know what to breed for in order to have good workers.

Wullie

If you want to Trial buy a good Lab, if you want to pick up buy a good Flatcoat, not one from show breeding. Flatcoats, at least the ones I had, hunted like Setters, retrieved like Labs, best of both worlds. Most of mine would handle pretty well but if they didn't find immediately they would drop rapidly down wind and hunt up instead of sticking close to the area like a Lab, this does them no favours in Trials but does fill the bag.

Of course working a good Flatcoat is like working a good Spaniel - you don't have to stand very still and concentrate to see whether the dog is moving or not like you do with the average Slab.

Good explanations, ta.
Wullie will remember the Flatcoats that picked up at Penciuk House when I was underkeeper there in the mid '80's, I was knew to gundogs but I can't remember seeing a stand out one, granted, I had other things to do on shoot days but I always had an eye for a dog and wetted then when I could. My mate had a good big liver dog, bred by a postman called Jack from Innerleithen, he could find grouse but, like the labs and springers we had, he was a sweeping up after the drive dog and ranged about hunting in the beating line. I do think they are pretty but not sure if I could have one.
Where would you go to get a working one? A guy I know from Morcambe has imported a couple from, I think, Norway(?) but he uses them for stalking.

As far as I can remember Dawnrazor, maybe 3 people did some picking up at Penicuik House with flatcoats ? One of them was a very nice lady called Molly Marquis . She had the worst flatcoats I have ever seen ! She couldn't have trained a parrot to sit on a perch ! I liked Molly but detested her dogs especially her big male flatcoat as he was aggressive to other dogs and even to small puppies. He chased down and bit into a 4 months old lab pup I had back then which caused me to chase after him ......wielding a brick ! If I'd caught up with him in those first few seconds while my always ready temper was raging .....Molly would have been minus one dog !

There were a few really good flatcoats owned by a couple of men in the Penicuik area back then ..... I think one of them was called Davy ? Nice bloke and a nice bitch too. As far as I am aware he never trialed the bitch although she was capable of being trialed ....in my opinion anyway ! Lab judges tend not to like flatcoats because the style of the dogs work just isn't what they are used to and isn't what they want to see. If I was able to I'd have a flatcoat for picking -up ....they often have very good noses and they often use them in an air-scenting way...... I am well used to that having had brittanies and GSP's for many years. In some scenting conditions that way of using the wind can easily beat labs and spaniels use of the wind.

Wullie

Canburne wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:48 pm A springer is only one type of spaniel......clearly you need to broaden your experience of 'spaniels'.........

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I don't think anyone 'needs' to broaden their experiences if they have something that work

Rm

Can't really do much if you don't understand English.

Canburne wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:33 pm Can't really do much if you don't understand English.

Are you capable of making anything more than petty remarks, which ironically tend to show a lack of ability in 'English'.

So far on this thread you have commented;

"I suppose the OP knows there are other types of retrievers rather than just boring labs"

And then your comment;

"A springer is only one type of spaniel......clearly you need to broaden your experience of 'spaniels''

Besides from clearly being an expert on all breeds.

Try expanding on your comments, and I may understand your 'English' a little better.

I, and I am sure others are all aware other breeds exist. I don't have all of them, would love to but I can't. So I tend to stick to the breeds I have and commonly see.

The only advantage to having Labs or Springers is the fact that nobody can tell whose dog has run in / is running amok / isn't returning nor stopping to whistle. Conversely, if you should have a Flatcoat and it behaves well the kudos is all yours.

I love Flatcoats, but I have never seen one in the shooting field around these parts. If a Flatcoat is willing to demolish Blackthorn and Gorse to flush a Pheasant then I am sure we would see them, but they won’t. The terrain and cover in Devon, especially Dartmoor and surrounding areas, is Spaniel country. We do have the odd Black Lab that will hunt to a degree, but when it comes to the rough stuff they are not so keen, where a Spaniel cherishes the challenge.

Horses for courses, but if you are beating around here it is a Spaniel, Cocker, Sprocker or Springer. An old friend had a Welsh Springer, sadly both gone now, but sorry, it just never cut it amongst the rough stuff. We are dogged old souls around here......We don’t like change! Tiz Spaniel country me beauty