Whats happened to this forum?

[westcountry]

The topic of "positive" vs. "corrective" training comes up very often on this forum. In general I think its a good thing because it leads to a more detailed description of how you each train which I find useful. However sometimes it seems to lead to some sounding judgmental and others insulted. I think it would be a very interesting experiment if we could all have a training session together. Of course we would need some sort of Star Trek transporter or virtual reality machine to accomplish this. However, it is my belief that if we actually got to see each other train under real life conditions we probably all train much more alike than the language in some posts would suggest. I am willing to bet that if I watched even the most "positive" of trainers work I could identify things that would prompt me to say "wait a minute wasn't that a correction" and I bet others might be surprised how positive my training sessions are. I think we are all somewhere on the scale of "balanced". I have been around training dogs long enough to have started out when the training proscribed by most "experts", certainly the ones who wrote books was much harsher than we use today but even those rough old guys used praise when the dog performed well. If they didn't I doubt they would ever succeed. I doubt it is possible to train a gun dog with correction only, as I doubt it is possible with praise and treats only.

While I am trapped here self isolating I am lucky to own some acreage around my home so I have been amusing myself and the dogs by doing some new training with them. (It is doubtful if I will ever find a practical use for it but it gives us something for us to do together, perhaps I will post about it elsewhere). In any case because it is new to them I have been using more "correction" than I generally do to get them started the right direction. This correction takes the form of a rough guttural "Hey" accompanied by a change in posture from relaxed to more alert. This is all it takes to get them to stop the unwanted behaviour. It is certainly correction, I would not be surprised if they still have a memory of being scruffed as youngsters for bad behaviour accompanied by the same voice and posture. However especially in the case of the Cocker it has been years since he has actually been scruffed. If you were watching me 90% of what you would see is praise and very happy dogs. They are happy because they are picking up these new skills quickly. They are happy to please me and love to succeed and I beleive a balanced approach is the quickest and easiest way to help them do that.

Excellent. There is a difference between correction and physical punishment. A harsh voice and a stern expression is one thing, physical punishment is another.

[newf]

Westcountry, you can cow a dog with a harsh voice and a stern expression. Further to that, you can call it a correction but if the dog doesn't like it, you can bring to the bank, that it is punishment. You can also punish a dog physically and not have it cowed but ironically inhibit the dog from trying that undesired behavior. To assume, that punishment has to be abusive is wrong and misleading. E.G. the cat warned the dog for you with a swipe of her paw, you benefit from that; you accidently tread on your dog's foot because he is between your feet; you benefit from that and a myiad of normal day to day events. So, neither or any of those situations are 'bad' or potentially ruin a dog. You may benefit from any of life's punishments and smile because the dog learnt something and feel proud you didn't cause it. Intelligently used, punishment is just a tool. You can let nature take care of it, in its random ways or you can utilize it with reinforcement.

[newf]

Yes, good post Munsty ! Better post Cambusvale !

[Judy]

I did write the word 'contraversial' after my brief mention of Chris Upton

He's certainly that! even I find him too hard on his dogs and I'm by no means classed as a positive only trainer.

[ips]

Excellent posts above especially mr munsty and mr cc

CC
I for one would be very interested in your current training program if you have time to write about it that would be great

[CockerCanuck]

Westcountry, you can cow a dog with a harsh voice and a stern expression. Further to that, you can call it a correction but if the dog doesn't like it, you can bring to the bank, that it is punishment. You can also punish a dog physically and not have it cowed but ironically inhibit the dog from trying that undesired behavior. To assume, that punishment has to be abusive is wrong and misleading. E.G. the cat warned the dog for you with a swipe of her paw, you benefit from that; you accidently tread on your dog's foot because he is between your feet; you benefit from that and a myiad of normal day to day events. So, neither or any of those situations are 'bad' or potentially ruin a dog. You may benefit from any of life's punishments and smile because the dog learnt something and feel proud you didn't cause it. Intelligently used, punishment is just a tool. You can let nature take care of it, in its random ways or you can utilize it with reinforcement.

I agree Newf. I think some of the cruelest dog handling I have ever seen did not involve ever touching the dog. Just a looming owner bellowing and haranguing over a cowering frightened dog. Something physical that was short sharp and better timed would be far less scary for the dog and more effective as a training tool. All my dogs have had some sort of physical correction when getting started accompanied by my growling "Hey". As time goes on they "hey" is enough but only because they associate it with the physical correction. I would not use the terms "punishment" and "correction" interchangeably to me they are different but I am not opposed to either. For example if one of my dogs growled at a child I would punish it shortly and swiftly. However, in general training I prefer to think of it as a correction when I say "hey not like that, like this good boy!". Not terribly differently than the way I raised two boys who have turned out just fine.

[JCL]

This thread has turned into an interesting, informative debate. Anyhow, as an alternative to Chris Upton's Youtube channell which as I said I have relied on to get me started with my young Springers, what/who would you recommend? Now that probably is a boring question often asked by 'Newbies' but it seems relevant to this thread.

Thank you.

Jon (Newbie owner/trainer in County Down)

[bird]

This thread has turned into an interesting, informative debate. Anyhow, as an alternative to Chris Upton's Youtube channell which as I said I have relied on to get me started with my young Springers, what/who would you recommend? Now that probably is a boring question often asked by 'Newbies' but it seems relevant to this thread.

Thank you.

Jon (Newbie owner/trainer in County Down)

David Lisett's videos would be better. (not cheap though)

[westcountry]

Search laochingundogs, Andy Cullen. Balanced trainer. About to start a video forum as due to Covid 19 he cant take personal lessons.
As bird says the Davy Lisset DVDs are good.

[JCL]

Thank you both for those pointers.

Jon