Hunting what your thoughts?

[Lloyd90]

I only have experience of one lot of Trial dogs beating and it was many years ago. The guy got his dog out of the truck took it for one drive during which it smashed the cover and itself then he put it back in the truck and got another out, repeated the exercise on the following drive then went home. Is that what you mean by taking a Trial dog beating? How do you get the dog to understand it has to go flat out for maybe 20 minutes one week then last all day the next? Certainly the above Trialler would only run his dogs for 20 minutes or so at a time.

Someone I know trained one of his Springers to hunt close and never taught it to retrieve, he took that one beating, the rest were trained as Retrievers he said its much easier on him and the dogs.

I trained my Test Retrievers to sit to shot, it didn't take them long to learn that it was a waste of time on a real shoot day whether beating or picking up.

To be fair there is no need whatsoever to have dogs in the beating line on big commercial shoots until after Christmas when birds are getting thin on the ground and wise to what the on coming noise means.

If he has 2 or 3 dogs, can run them for 20 mins each and then swap them over don't see an issue with that.

I did used to wonder how people who have 2 or 3 dogs in the beating lines worked them without swapping them over ... then I saw it, they just click all of them off at the start of the drive... walk through the drive and hope that their dogs are somewhere to be found when they get to the other side

Having control of 1 dog and swapping it over, I think probably works better than the folks with 1 dog, who they run all day, especially on some of these 10-4 shoots, I have seen dogs absolutely knackered by the end of them, and heard many reports of dogs having seizures and fitting and having to be rushed off to the vets. very frightening experience for my mate who almost lost his dog.

[ips]

I get what your saying Ian,

For the beater who has no desire to trial or rough shoot ... they just want to work their dog because they enjoy it, then they might be better off training the dog to go beating as you say.

I had a problem myself, I trained my dog with the shooting books and DVD’s ... first day I took him beating, he stopped to flush a few times, but after several shots he wasn’t expecting to hunt on he was expecting to go retrieve that bird he just flushed... and wanted to run off ahead to go and find it!

Now I have no doubt this is from a combination of my ignorance of not expecting or seeing this issue, my poor training and my and the dogs lack of experience. However I am sure a lot of beaters have had similar issues.



If beaters were to train in a structured way that trained their dog to hunt close, flush, and then carry on, without ever retrieving a bird, 90% of them would be happy with that and could carry on going beating.

One of the best beaters on our small shoot had two cockers, his older one wouldn't ever pick a bird, would flush all day long though and stay under his control and he was very happy with that.

Spot on, exactly my point but much better written

[ips]

Is that what you mean by taking a Trial dog beating? How do you get the dog to understand it has to go flat out for maybe 20 minutes one week then last all day the next? Certainly the above Trialler would only run his dogs for 20 minutes or so at a time.

Someone I know trained one of his Springers to hunt close and never taught it to retrieve, he took that one beating, the rest were trained as Retrievers he said its much easier on him and the dogs.

I trained my Test Retrievers to sit to shot, it didn't take them long to learn that it was a waste of time on a real shoot day whether beating or picking up.

Again, exactly my point.

One of the best beating dogs i have seen is rubbish as a peg dog in a hide and being shot over, by the handlers own admission. It has been trained specifically for beating large shoots and does so very well, never even seen a whistle used on it. It excells at the specific task it was trained for.

My next one will be trained similarly, very little if any retrieving reward will be the flush rather than the retrieve, not sure how yet but that's the plan

[Naj]

They used to have Field Trials for teams of spaniels, and braces. The teams were trained to work as such from the outset and only one dog would be designated as the retriever and trained for that while the others never retrieved. I once read a book on this topic by a guy who specialised in developing beating teams in this way but I forget the Title now. It would be easy enough just to train a dog used for beating to ignore marks and only hunt on blinds, which would be handy for sweeping up after drives. When I used to beat I always had an experienced and experienced do with me and worked one while the other stayed at heel, swapping them in line with the situation. Most drives don’t last much over 29-30 minutes with much stop/starting so beating dogs aren’t hunting non stop for hours on end, but the practice of only hunting dogs in short bursts is, I believe, detrimental to the breed and quite likely responsible (along with narrow gene pools) for all these collapsing dogs we hear about, which is only a recent development.

As regards context the problem is not ‘context’ but the fact that most folk can’t generalise behaviours to every context the dog might find itself in. Apart from dogging in there is nothing that can compare to the excitement of a beating line and large numbers of birds running ahead of the dog so folk are having to train on the shooting day as best they can, or just give up with the enormity if the problem. A compliant dog is a help but you still need to train that compliance in demanding situations. And too much compliance can be a pain. It has to be balanced with initiative.

Naj

[ips]

.

As regards context the problem is not ‘context’ but the fact that most folk can’t generalise behaviours to every context the dog might find itself in. Apart from dogging in there is nothing that can compare to the excitement of a beating line and large numbers of birds running ahead of the dog so folk are having to train on the shooting day as best they can, or just give up with the enormity if the problem. A compliant dog is a help but you still need to train that compliance in demanding situations.

Naj

Yep

[ESS]

I think any shooting should require a dog hunt close,
I have a springer to hes what i describe as a one band mans dog he a great worker and finds game but works to far out. I dont shoot so not to much of an issue but i do beat with him. Hes under control but work to far out.

I would prefer him work closer but hes past that now.
My current cocker the one which ive asked about his head being up, i wanted do a working test so it appears we are expecting two different styles to degree.

I think i will continue to train him work close and a nice pattern as its just alot easier when beating but like mentioned i think getting him on game will help get his nose down more. Thanks

[westcountry]

Just my tuppence worth But a well trained ( compliant ) dog is more capable of adapting its training to its work ( you can take `context' in training to the point of excuse imo ) If you have a dog `on the whistle' you can allow or deny the hunting range of any dog, if its got the range/desire in the first place.... its called handling what you have trained

The only reason why keepers dont like trial dogs is that they are well trained , hunt close ,stop to flush and make their disobedient ill bred muppets look stoopid.

There is some mileage in those words of wisdom

Thanks Munsty. My whole point was that a well trained dog does what is asked of it. If you train a dog aiming for trial standards and it falls just short ,then it still makes an excellent shooting ,beating ,picking up dog. See too many people saying they dont need to train as they only want a beating dog.
Take a survey on different shoots and ask the beaters to get their dogs to sit while the handler walks away. Its shocking how many cant get the dog to do that simple exercise.
Have a young dog, only two last month. Trained him for trialing. Second in his first working test at 10 months old, beaten by one point by his litter sister. Being a very timid dog I took him in the team last season. He went beating, picking up from Grouse in September to sitting on peg whilst I shot in January. Never once ran in. Walked heel when asked. Never had to growl at him. All before he was 2 years old. Hopefully will trial him this season and will be shocked if he does not gain an award. Dog was trained to trial but because of his training he can do whatever is asked of him.
Train to a standard and you wont be disappointed with the end result.

[newf]

Westcountry, I agree training sets up boundaries and communication that makes for a smoother transition in other areas, however, the dog you got is still the biggest factor on ease of adapting.

[ips]

Just my tuppence worth But a well trained ( compliant ) dog is more capable of adapting its training to its work ( you can take `context' in training to the point of excuse imo ) If you have a dog `on the whistle' you can allow or deny the hunting range of any dog, if its got the range/desire in the first place.... its called handling what you have trained

The only reason why keepers dont like trial dogs is that they are well trained , hunt close ,stop to flush and make their disobedient ill bred muppets look stoopid.

There is some mileage in those words of wisdom

Thanks Munsty. My whole point was that a well trained dog does what is asked of it. If you train a dog aiming for trial standards and it falls just short ,then it still makes an excellent shooting ,beating ,picking up dog. See too many people saying they dont need to train as they only want a beating dog.
Take a survey on different shoots and ask the beaters to get their dogs to sit while the handler walks away. Its shocking how many cant get the dog to do that simple exercise.
Have a young dog, only two last month. Trained him for trialing. Second in his first working test at 10 months old, beaten by one point by his litter sister. Being a very timid dog I took him in the team last season. He went beating, picking up from Grouse in September to sitting on peg whilst I shot in January. Never once ran in. Walked heel when asked. Never had to growl at him. All before he was 2 years old. Hopefully will trial him this season and will be shocked if he does not gain an award. Dog was trained to trial but because of his training he can do whatever is asked of him.
Train to a standard and you wont be disappointed with the end result.

For the record i never alluded to not training just a different regime one more akin to beating rather than hunt, flush, retrieve

[westcountry]

Ian , from what you have done with Eze ,she should be capable of running in a trial.
I do go beating and have dogs that do the job. I have dogs that pick up ,all on large commercial shoots. 10000 bird days on exmoor. I also trial with moderate success. Believe me when I say that a well trained trialing dog can do whatever is asked of it wether beating or picking up. Lots of trial winning dogs are trained in the beating line.