Charlies Chatter - MK.1

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:12 pm
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I was back in the garden with Charlie this evening and did a few whistle sits and a little steadiness training. Unknown to me my wife had just had him out for a walk around some nearby woods - he wasn't in the mood for my training session. I jacked it in and had a cup of tea instead !

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:53 pm
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It's been another glorious day, I headed back to the river with Charlie. The river runs through a sort of nature reserve/public park area and the access is good. There are several places where a dog can get an easy entry to the water and my plan was to take Charlie to several of them . He's a quite sensitive wee dog and I wanted to broaden his horizons a little and not have him think that swimming is done in just one or two places.

The very first place I came to is ideal for a young dog. A very easy gradual entry and not too fast flowing. Right from the start I used dummies today - no more sticks. I allowed a run in for two reasons, it winds the dog up to "go" a bit more and No. 2 - I can't stop him anyway !
Charlie did this easily and did a good delivery too before he shook. We went further along the river. A faster section but a fairly easy entry . Again he did it easily, he was now swimming about 25 feet out to the dummy.

The next part was a bit dodgy , a steeper and deeper entry and faster swirly water below a small waterfall. Charlie again went in and got the dummy with no problems. He is very splashy especially as he returns with the dummy, he seems to try his hardest to keep the dummy well out of the water and in doing so adopts a more upright posture. The splashing gets worse.

Today I did go to the mill race, the water is shallow but the entry is steep at most parts. I tossed the dummy ten feet onto the opposite bank and Charlie hesitated at the steep entry but went and got it with a minimum of encouragement.

I now made the gun dog trainers classic mistake - I went for one more retrieve and things went very, very wrong.
I'd gone back to the river and thrown a dummy in about half way across , maybe about twenty to twenty five feet. Charlie went charging down the bank and in for it...... and so did two big black show type labs from the far bank ! I hadn't seen them and don't really blame them for "running in." Their owner just watched and did nothing. One lab got to the dummy before Charlie and grabbed it , that was fair enough . The other lab could touch bottom with its paws , he mounted Charlie who could not touch bottom, Charlie was being held underwater. The guy with the lab shouted and the dog paid no attention at all . I saw red , waded in , grabbed the lab by the jowls , swung it up and out and released it at head height to crash into the water. I fished out Charlie and carried him to the bank. The labs owner was yelling blue murder at me from his bank but I was already wet so what the hell - I waded back into the river and made for him , I was raging mad ! This registered with the lab man and he took off. His dogs went with him but minus my dummy, I never saw that again. I returned to Charlie. He is now refusing to retrieve from water even if I go in first, I was already wet so I tried that . He is also very uncertain about going for a dummy on dry land. I'm still angry - wish the guy with the labs had stuck around !!!

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:07 pm
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It has been 42 years since that last happened to me. My dog then was a 5 -6 month old springer spaniel and the place was Forfar loch. It was a labrador that grabbed my pup that time too and once more I had to go in to get my pup out from under. I was younger then and that labs owner didn't hang around to say sorry !!! My temper was even worse back then !

I've been messing about with Charlie tonight and he is looking a bit happier but when I tossed a dummy in the garden he looked worried and just ran straight into his kennel. He came out himself about 20 minutes later. I have now played some more with him and he is once more picking a dummy. I think he'll be O.K. he enjoys retrieving too much to quit altogether.

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:59 am
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I have never been able to put a problem to one side and return to it later, I tend to go at things like a bull at a gate ! This morning I took Charlie out along with a bag of dummies. My plan, if you can call it that ,was to get him really wound up before throwing dummies.

I took him to a rabbits galore area to let them do the winding. I went 40 yards from the car and released Charlie to clean himself. He went 12 feet ahead of me looking just like my wifes nickname for him which is "Charlie Chunter" - he always just chunters around when she takes him out ! He went around the corner of a forestry fence bordering a wood , I turned the same corner just 3 - 4 seconds later and he was gone! I looked out over the rough field and there he was 50 to 60 yards away in hot pursuit of a rabbit . I didn't even try to recall him, I fished in my gamebag and brought out a frisbee. This is a sort of helicopter blade arrangement that seems to wind dogs up no end . I use it with my young G.S.P. for steadiness training but with Charlie I was hoping to use it to get him to retrieve again outdoors.

As he returned I tossed it low near to him , it whirred past him and began to rise then almost float in the air over him. He was after it like a shot, it got pounced on and it got retrieved. Several throws later and Charlie was pretty happy - then I lost the frisbee. Its flight is erratic , I think that's what makes it attractive to dogs. It went badly off course and flew into a wood where I lost sight of it. Charlie had been charging along underneath it and when I arrived on the scene he was busy staring up at the trees. I think its stuck up there somewhere. I'll never see that again.
I dropped a dummy and helped Charlie find it , he did find it and he retrieved it but seemed a bit wary. I think the combination of the ducking he got plus all my angry shouting at the lab and at its owner yesterday has got to him, he's a sensitive wee dog.

I went back to rabbit ground to wind him up again. I had a " banging dummy " with me , this has been a waste of money as a dummy, it does not work consistently when thrown but it's not too bad as a starting pistol. It takes the tiny little .22 blanks. It didn't take long for Charlie to find some really hot scents, I let him charge around at much too great a range for a spaniel and he got so wound up he was "proinking " 3 feet into the air like an African gazelle. While he was in mid proink I fired the dummy then threw it, Charlie stopped dead 20 yards away and saw it fall. He looked a little concerned but went out and brought back the dummy.

I allowed him to hunt on and he found a rabbit and at once chased, I fired the dummy and he paid no attention at all - a much better response.

In short , I got him to retrieve outdoors again this morning, he likes retrieving anyway and that combined with the rabbits did the trick. He still looks a little uncertain when a dummy is thrown but barring any more mishaps I think he should come all right again --- but water is another story, I will wait until a nice warm day and try again with water but at a completely different place in case he associates the place with dummies and with unpleasantness.

The little .22 blanks this morning gave me some idea of how sensitive Charlie will be to bangs. What I saw leads me to think that I might be better to put steadiness to game training on hold for a little while. I have a feeling I should let him chase rabbits and fire shots while he chases until he associates shots with pleasure.

If I had others nearby to train with I would have them fire the shots and throw dummies at a distance until Charlie decided it was all good fun. I can't give him that kind of introduction to gunfire so letting him chase rabbits as bangs go off is the next best thing.

I will have to retrain all that later but for the moment that will have to do.

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:14 pm
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On and off during today and this evening I've been working on Charlies sit to whistle. I now have him sitting up to about 20 feet away if there are no distractions. I am a little uncertain how fast to proceed with this, normally I take a while to work on a dogs responses to the stop whistle. For what I hope will be a very short period I will try to get Charlie used to gunfire by firing a tiny blank as he chases rabbits. I will try to work retrieves into this until he is happy to do them again. I'm a bit wary of doing the retieves and the bangs at the same time but without a helper this is about the best I can do.

The labrador yesterday has really mucked up even my very loose training programme.

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:37 am
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I was out and about at 5.45 this morning to let the dog see the rabbit. Charlie saw and chased two and I fired the little .22 blank. A good reaction - no reaction at all ! He kept right on chasing. I waited until he was charging about in a heavily scented area and was 25 -30 yards from me but with no rabbit in sight then fired it again. He stopped , looked at me but did not look frightened , more just puzzled. I went to him and gave him some cheese. He liked that and we continued on over rabbit scented ground with me putting in an occasional stop whistle but no more bangs. I now have him sitting to whistle up to about 30 feet away, sometimes just for praise sometimes for a cube of cheese. I tried some retrieving. The fright he got has had some very odd results. He is retrieving outdoors again but has added some new kinks to his repertoire. He now sits when a dummy is thrown with no command to do so ? He doesn't do this every time but he does it at ranges of maybe ten feet from me - that one has got me baffled ! I can now tell him to sit and throw a dummy and he remains sitting and steady until told to fetch it ? How the hell did he learn that ? He now sometimes drops the dummy as he returns and he now does little anxious looking circles around my feet when he does return with it , and he sometimes drops it at my feet now , something he never did before.
I rather think he is waiting for a big dog to appear to take his dummy or half drown him ! I now wish I had not yelled so angrily at the lab and its owner , Charlie has picked up on my anger and may think it is connected to retrieving.

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:03 pm
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I went to a gamefair today and met Gdunc and Scotsgent. I also met Ellie, Duncans cocker and last but not least I met his wife. We watched the spaniels work in the novice test. It is very easy to be critical when you are only spectating and I fell into that trap today.

I have to say most of the dogs I saw didn't greatly impress me. This was being very unfair to the dogs. The test area for both the novice and open dogs was the same. Many dogs and many handlers plus the judges had gone over it and over it. Dummy scent from previous retrieves abounded. As in many tests only the first two dogs to run got a reasonably clean slate to work on. Some of the dogs just did not "go" and I cannot really blame them. I spoke to a couple of competitors and was told they'd seen no sign of game ever having been there - no rabbit droppings = no rabbit scents to get a dog going.

I was a bit puzzled by the way the handlers wanted their dogs to hunt. Some of them just would not let their dogs hunt. A dog is supposed to hunt to the wind. The wind, as far as I could tell was coming from behind the handlers left shoulders. I saw several handlers - a lot of handlers - try to hunt their dogs as if the wind was blowing directly into their faces. They forced their own dogs into working an incorrect pattern. The dogs might have found game with their feet but their noses got little chance to work.

I have no idea what the judges made of this, no idea how they marked it.

The retrieving, for the most part, impressed me more. Few dogs failed on any retrieve and one of retrieves was over a rather high fence with a clearly marked top wire. Most of the springers sailed over this fence but some of the cockers toiled a bit, their size worked against them.

The novice test consisted of two spaniels hunted together with the handlers perhaps 10 yards apart. The dogs sometimes met with each other as they hunted. The ground was a flattish area of what I call "spike grass" - not heavy cover. I have also heard this described in Scotland as "Rashy grund" - - - "Rushy ground. A pretty good description really.
The sun came out, it was warm and the fairly strong wind came from behind and to one side of the handlers. There was no water.

The dogs were hunted a short distance and a shot was fired. The dogs were expected to sit to shot.

After being hunted on for 40 yards or so another shot was fired and one dog was sent back for an unseen dummy , ( what I call an unsighted seek- back.) This was repeated for the other dog. I felt the first dog sent had a big advantage for there were two dummies out there , the dog could find and pick either. As far as I am aware the judges did not mind which dummy the first dog picked. I.M.O. the second dog was handicapped . There was only one dummy it could pick but the scent from the previously picked dummy still lingered to distract it as it sought the remaining dummy.

Another short hunt and another shot was fired. This time a dummy was thrown by the gun firer. This was a marked retrieve over a fairly high fence. The fence may have been 4 feet high , from our high viewing point it was hard to say - it was certainly high by spaniel standards.
Once the first dog had done this retrieve another short hunt preceded another shot and another dummy thrown on the other side of the fence from the dogs. The second dog was sent and on completion of the retrieve the dogs were hunted the few yards left up to the fence.

During this retrieve I saw several handlers committing what I consider to be a classical handlers error. As the shot was fired and the dummy was thrown they attempted to point their dogs , sitting several yards from them towards this bang - maker and dummy thrower. This can result in two things. The dog may take this directional arm signal as the command to "go retrieve." If this does not happen and the dog sees the arm signal there is a very good chance that the dog will be distracted by it and miss seeing the dummy fall - - - - - the handler has distracted his own dog !

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A walk around the stalls was interesting. Rabbit skins were being sold for £6 each I nearly fell off my perch I'd want to buy a rabbit farm for that !

I bought a game carrier - that was my lot !!! A very expensive game carrier if the price of petrol is added in and also the £8 entry money. I felt that was a bit steep for a small game fair. I did have a good and interesting day out though - nice meeting you Terry, Duncan and family !

Wullie.

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:01 pm
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Hi Terry, I.M.O., when any dog is being trained ,the signals should be exaggerated, given with emphasis. Once the dog really understands the signal then the signal can be "calmed down a bit."

Like you , I thought the girl with the springer handled well - her dog understood exactly what was required and did it. To my eyes some of the other handlers gave signals that were a bit "loose" or "wooly" and got wooly results from their dogs. I think it is better to give one very obvious signal and have it obeyed than to hope a judge will not see an understated signal then have to repeat it when the the dog does not see it or understand it either.

One other thing crosses my mind. The best handling dog on the day is always the dog that appears not to need to be handled.

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Originally posted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:32 pm
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I was out with Charlie this morning but got off to a bad start - I forgot to take my whistle. I got to a likely bit for rabbit scent and crouched over to take off the lead . With mission accomplished I eased my old bones upwards again - Charlie was fifty yards away and still going ! During the few seconds it took for me to straighten ,he'd decided the rabbits would be in the woods 80 yards away and got more than halfway there ! Gawd , that little sod can run !

I retrieved him from the wood and leashed him then moved to a heavily gorse bushed area. I hoped the prickles would slow him down. They did to the extent that he certainly doesn't bust 'em apart - but he does go under them ! An area that looks pretty inpenetrable to me was easy for him . I saw him go under and in and didn't see him again until two rabbits dived out of this big main clump and headed off for a nearby lesser clump. I watched this 30 + yards off area carefully and sure enough out came Charlie. I called him and he ran all the way around the outside and back to me , he decided to finish with a flourish and jumped up at me doing a sort of mid air pirouette at the same time ! He was sort of grinning too and my sense of humour got the better of me and I burst out laughing I find it hard to resist this little dogs spontaneity of character and even harder to correct him for faults that I should not have allowed to arise.

I moved areas yet again and hunted him again. Now I began to get somewhere, he was still very inclined to want to hunt too far out - I have quite honestly seen some H.P.R. 's that hunt with less pace and range than he seems to like.
My voice was in constant use as was my legs and arms . I'd hardly turned him before I had to turn him again. I don't think there was more than 3 -4 seconds between one turn call and the next , it was thirsty work but the pubs weren't open yet. As he hunted I did a few sits to voice. I would say he usually "stole " 3 to 4 feet of ground after the sit command. He was being sat at ranges of 10 to 15 feet so I can't moan too much - a week or two ago he would not sit beyond 5 feet from me. It's slow progress but it is progress. I went to him and rewarded his faster sits with a cube of cheese. Not exactly the generally approved rough , tough manner of spaniel training but never mind !

I did 3 marked retrieves with him and two of them were a dead loss. On the first two retrieves the dummy did a bad bounce and landed in gorse bushes. The way things were situated Charlie had seen the dummies in the air but hadn't seen them land. Because the bushes were against a fence he couldn't get around the back of them to catch the scent - he ran about like a chicken with its' head cut off ! So as not to discourage him I went out and quietly helped him by moving the dummies out of the gorse then retreating to let him find them. His delivery was non existent on every dummy today, he sideslipped me every time. He turns and comes in after a few feet but I will have to do a lot more work on this.

I finished with a memory retrieve done in light grass but in a rabbit scent soaked area. The distance was only 40 yards but I thought he might go off rabbit hunting so I didn't want to be too far away. He did the retrieve easily with no messing about except for the inevitable sideslip of me me at the end !

Wullie

[trekmoor]

Tue May 13, 2008 6:22 pm
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Hi Zoe, I'm pleased to hear you are considering training your pup as a gundog, it is what they were bred for and are meant for.

At this stage I think its wise NOT to follow Charlies upbringing too exactly. Free hunting is not for every dog and it is even more so not for every handler. I never advise anyone to free hunt a dog it is something only you can decide upon whether to do it or not. I have done freehunting for years with my H.P.R.'s but I was younger then and able to catch them and also of course with H.P.R. 's the fact that they sometimes point before chasing gives you more chance of controlling them !


I took Charlie up The Law this afternoon and had a pretty good session with him. The Law has little or no game other than voles and moles so he didn't get quite so worked up while hunting. I only did a very short hunt through tussocky long grasses , about 40 to 50 yards. I was puffing like an auld horse after that Charlie was going well though answering to voice and whistle at short spaniel ranges. I tried putting a check cord on him and he stopped dead and wouldn't "go." I think if I want to try that it will have to be on rabbity ground where the incentive to hunt is higher. I'm not a fan of check cords anyway, something always seem to go wrong when I try using them - I suspect I'm just cack - handed !

I was pleased with his off checkcord hunting though I had to make him sit to whistle more than a few times. He is chancing his mitt to see how much much I will tolerate a failure to sit. Several times he stopped but remained standing looking at me from the corner of his eye to see if I was coming to get him or not ........ I was !!!

His retrieving is almost back to normal . He is now running in again most of the time. I know it sounds odd to be pleased about this but I didn't like the circumstances under which he suddenly became "steady." Hunting him and having him retrieve among rabbits to get him keen to "go" again was chancy but it worked.

I tried sitting him on a forestry path today then doing an off lead stay with him as I threw a dummy as hard as I could over a big , wide,deep ditch and into the fallen trees and broken branches littering the woodland floor. Once he was back on the lead I walked him 40 yards off along the path,then turned, lined him up and sent him.
He made a really good job of this and was back in no time to happily present me with the dummy and about 3 pounds of mud from the ditch ! Suitably besmirched I carried on along the track!

I tried a couple of marked retieves and he did them well too but still side slips me. He passes by very close to me, just 2 to 3 feet away and I have to resist the temptation to do a dummy snatch as he passes.
I also tried sitting him as a dummy was thrown backwards over my shoulder. This worked well 'cos I could "cut him off at the pass" as he ran in.
This was tried twice more with some success. I managed to keep Charlie at the sit while I picked all but one of the dummies. I let him retrieve one of the dummies.

To finish with he got a 120 yard long memory retrieve over short grass which he did standing on his head. I managed to get my back to a fence as he returned and thought " That'll larn him !" I anticipated him trying to body swerve and being checked by the fence. What happened next was contrary to my expectations. I think Charlie was a rat in his last existence , when he sideslipped he noticed a tiny gap half hidden by vegetation going under the fence . He seemed to go under it without even changing pace. I called him back and he began to return still holding his dummy, this wasn't good but it wasn't the end of the world either. Then he noticed what this paddock area he'd arrived in contained, luverly fresh horse poo !!! I can't easily climb fences so I had to be an enraged but silent spectator as Charlie proceeded to enjoy these horses doovres !
I hope I don't have any more clever ideas too soon. Having loaded up his tum he picked up the dummy and returned. I smiled bravely and cuddled him , you can't win them all.

Wullie