It's all about the training!

[munstyman]

Evening Mr ips I am well thank you for asking.
A great deal of what you train as the basics is not based purely on the end goal but how you train the dog to get to that goal. Taking your point about the retrieve training of a pure `beating' dog. A dog that is a natural, and instinctive hunter could be argued not to ever be trained to carry anything in its mouth let alone bring it back to you. However you can, and I do use `retriever' training to, for example teach directional and steadiness training as a stepping stone to help the dog learn what those instructions mean. Example: If you point to the left the pup will look at you with a blank expression. However you throw something to the left at the same time as you point and the pup will chase after the object and you give the pup the chance to build the association. ( Directional training )
My second point about basic training covering everything involved in gundog training, not just narrowing it down for a specific need of the handler going forward. Would be the question of, is it better to have it and not need it or need it, how ever infrequently that may be and not have it? You said it yourself,

for instance I have often wondered if training the retrieve is in reality detrimental to a beating dog given that apart from sweeping up after the odd drive it is not required if you only intend to go beating

Now I admit, having run,gawp crunchers, means I've become use to training all aspects of gundog work all the time, so anything less is somewhat confusing for me. I expect in a few years, when I'm older and want a more easy life and say stray into the quiet life of Labrador ownership. I'm going to find myself and my training regimes a little over the top ..... or maybe I'll get the Lab to hunt as well as retrieve

[Nickheref]

Kibble
I have said many times on here that imo following a FT training regime is not necessarily what you want for a beating dog but that is all that seems to be out there, there should imo be a training regime specifically for beating considering that it seems to be that 90% of us only go beating ......I will get my coat

For me it is a bit like my phone, it has all sorts of things on it that most of the time I don't need or use but when I do need them they are useful to have and may just save me a lot of trouble! Plus some of the things cross over, dogs who have learnt to quarter usually take basic handling on retrieves in their stride with very little training. The trick is nothing to excess so you keep the dogs natural ability and self belief.

[Nickheref]

Thanks ips
I guess that finding out what to do in a way that suits you, your situation and your dog is going to be a bit trial and error for a novice.
I feel that I have been gifted a racehorse, when I deserved a stolid pony. However, I can safely say that I have not squashed Mia's desire to hunt, so having a beating goal, which will accommodate this, is a good plan. I just need to step up and get there.

It may sound counter intuitive but I and I suspect a lot of people prefer the "full on dog who wants to do everything" to the dull slow plodder. All you have to teach the former is to stop when you ask and the order you want things done in which is pretty easy if you go about it in the right way, trying to get a dog who doesn't want to retrieve or hunt (see some anguished posts on the forum of "my dog doesn't really hunt" or "wont carry anything ") to do so is difficult, very hard work and time consuming and for me a bit frustrating, fortunately it hasn't happened very often! So whilst you might think you want the slow dog I have found on the whole the "dull slow plodder" is not very bright and so difficult to train to do anything anyway as they are more difficult to engage with. The live wires are thinking all the time and problem solving, you just need to get them to think on the same lines as you and solve your problems. It is back to "the faster they move - the faster they stop, the faster they recall etc" if it is taught properly.

Not just with gundogs, watch agility etc, the slow plodders tend get lost on the course or suddenly lose interest as they lack focus which makes the crowd laugh but they would be likely to do the same just out for walk or decide to go and play with another dog 100 yards away if they had noticed it!

I suspect if you could suddenly swap Mia for a dog who wasn't like her, you would find it very, very dull!

[ips]

Evening Mr ips I am well thank you for asking.
A great deal of what you train as the basics is not based purely on the end goal but how you train the dog to get to that goal. Taking your point about the retrieve training of a pure `beating' dog. A dog that is a natural, and instinctive hunter could be argued not to ever be trained to carry anything in its mouth let alone bring it back to you. However you can, and I do use `retriever' training to, for example teach directional and steadiness training as a stepping stone to help the dog learn what those instructions mean. Example: If you point to the left the pup will look at you with a blank expression. However you throw something to the left at the same time as you point and the pup will chase after the object and you give the pup the chance to build the association. ( Directional training )
My second point about basic training covering everything involved in gundog training, not just narrowing it down for a specific need of the handler going forward. Would be the question of, is it better to have it and not need it or need it, how ever infrequently that may be and not have it? You said it yourself,

for instance I have often wondered if training the retrieve is in reality detrimental to a beating dog given that apart from sweeping up after the odd drive it is not required if you only intend to go beating

Now I admit, having run,gawp crunchers, means I've become use to training all aspects of gundog work all the time, so anything less is somewhat confusing for me. I expect in a few years, when I'm older and want a more easy life and say stray into the quiet life of Labrador ownership. I'm going to find myself and my training regimes a little over the top ..... or maybe I'll get the Lab to hunt as well as retrieve

MM, a lot of that makes sense.......I will give it some thought though

[Kibble]

V

It may sound counter intuitive but I and I suspect a lot of people prefer the "full on dog who wants to do everything" to the dull slow plodder. All you have to teach the former is to stop when you ask and the order you want things done in which is pretty easy if you go about it in the right way,

I suspect if you could suddenly swap Mia for a dog who wasn't like her, you would find it very, very dull!

I read this post as Mia and I got back from 'quartering' the beach. It was very timely as Mia stinks, but of course I don't want to swop her.
I always thought that someone who knew what they were doing would like a quick dog like Mia, and it was a shame she didn't go to a working home. Now I realise that she has to be extra keen to cope with my muddled training and multiple errors. She is getting good at shaking it off, and as she is going to be a 'beating dog' she has a working home.

All was fine on a delightfully quiet beach today, except that getting her lead on, in anticipation of a no run in retrieve, was a bit too exciting for Mia. Also, retrieve to hand has gone. I knew this yesterday and hope it is a temporary blip.
Mia found a few dead things on the beach. She left them when I told her 'leave it' and walked purposefully on (your earlier advice I think), but not before she had had a good roll. Hence, the stink. Nothing quite as disgusting as dead sea stuff.

While 'beating' training on the strip of cover crop yesterday, I resisted the temptation to drop a tb or two. This might make the exercise more interesting for me, (as well as frustrating when she 'forgets' how to deliver to hand!) but I think it is disruptive to the main purpose for Mia. As MM suggests I need to put retrieving on hold for a while, or do the picking up myself while Mia gets to watch steadily . Thanks MM.

[Kibble]

If the dog is trying to move the goal posts your not making the reward for the function timely or satisfactory. This is difficult to sometimes get right, as sometimes physical rewards are not what is best for the dog, and you have to give the dog more a sense of `self' achievement. Delivery is a whole other topic, with numerous ways of achieving the same outcome, from making the retrieves more difficult to begin with. To moving the function and reward beyond the actual delivery to hand. If you find yourself getting tense over anything training related, first step is stop trying it for a while

I don't want to edge towards the anthropomorphic slippery slope, but I think you are saying that Mia will enjoy getting something right for its own sake, especially if it is difficult for her? I have noticed that she is (was!) more likely to deliver a hard (long memory into cover) retrieve nicely to hand.
However, retrieving is on hold for now.
Do marked and memory seem to use different skills.

[munstyman]

I don't want to edge towards the anthropomorphic slippery slope, but I think you are saying that Mia will enjoy getting something right for its own sake, especially if it is difficult for her? I have noticed that she is (was!) more likely to deliver a hard (long memory into cover) retrieve nicely to hand.
However, retrieving is on hold for now.
Do marked and memory seem to use different skills.

If self achievement did not exist, I doubt I would be able to train my dogs at all, as I don't treat and only use praise lightly.
That's not to say as a handler you should not share in the dogs achievement and show appreciation of its achievement on its completion of the task. If you don't you can get the opposite effect of the dog ceasing to try
All the training `games' are fluid, in that I will change them around just enough to both repeat to build confidence where I think the dog needs it, and/or to stretch the dogs ability just that little bit more to move the dog on in its training, stop it getting `bored' to the point the dog changes the game,( your delivery issue ) and to give it that sense of achieving something it has not done before.

I have noticed that she is (was!) more likely to deliver a hard (long memory into cover) retrieve nicely to hand.

See, you are reading your dog right you just lack the experience of what to do, we've all been there so your in good company

Marked retrieves are mainly eye and memory related, memory or seek back retrieves are memory and nose related. Obviously there will be some cross over depending on distance , timing and conditions, but the key thing to remember is the dogs primary sense is its nose not its eyes, so you as the handler have to adjust how you look at the exercises you set. The more a hunting dog is challenged by the hunt of the retrieve the greater the sense of achievement it will get Just don't push it to the point the dog fails unless you have a backup plan Training a dog is never boring or straight forward, every mistake you make is an opportunity to better yourself, secret of life stuff

[Nickheref]

V
Now I realise that she has to be extra keen to cope with my muddled training and multiple errors. She is getting good at shaking it off, and as she is going to be a 'beating dog' she has a working home.

I think if we are all honest and look back at our training of our first dogs, the horrendous mistakes we made would make us cringe and it is a tribute to the dogs enthusiasm and ability to forgive that they became half decent and so we were prepared to train more dogs and blight the rest of our lives . Furthermore there are probably quite a few dogs that we would now admit we got wrong and if we had the ability to start their training again it might have been easier (plus a couple I would never have even bothered collecting as pups!). Another reason to love the "triers", they give you second, third and even fourth chances! I am pretty sure I could train my first dog in a quarter of the time it took back then and have a better finished gundog as I wouldn't have to undo so many things that inadvertently I had done by sending the wrong message to her but the one thing I did get right was the stop and that bailed me out of many potential problems.

[Nickheref]

or maybe I'll get the Lab to hunt as well as retrieve

Go on, go the whole way and make it a pointing lab!

[PRH]

V
Now I realise that she has to be extra keen to cope with my muddled training and multiple errors. She is getting good at shaking it off, and as she is going to be a 'beating dog' she has a working home.

I am pretty sure I could train my first dog in a quarter of the time it took back then and have a better finished gundog as I wouldn't have to undo so many things that inadvertently I had done by sending the wrong message to her but the one thing I did get right was the stop and that bailed me out of many potential problems.

What he said! This a million times.