Gundog Training Forum

Thank you someone with some brains!

jeffiner wrote: When the Kennel Club get their act together and get Antagene to send them the test results, instead of the owners, then those with currently undisclosed tested carriers will be unable to inflict affected pups on the unsuspecting purchasers - of which sadly, there are still far too many. I might add that in my opinion they also need to flag up the untested parents of any tested affected dogs.

Judy wrote:Good news;
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-r ... -spaniels/

Why oh why do these threads always sink into remonstrations and a perceived Trials versus health testers debate? Please read others' posts and try to calm down before leaping into print, calm reasoned debate is always welcomed on here, we are all entitled to our opinions, going off in one is no help and just antagonises everyone.

Ask yourselves which is most important for the Cockers themselves, winning a Trial or being healthy, before you get into these, imo, unnecessary exchanges. Yes we all want good dogs, yes we should all want healthy good dogs, so basically we should all be in agreement? Why the aggro?

As I understand it the disease is effectively fatal, it isn't desperately wide spread at present and breeders have a chance to eradicate it inside maybe four generations IF everyone tries. So, what's not to like about that idea?

jeffiner wrote:I agree with Teddy. It's like banging our heads on a brick wall!!

Weardalesman - you have said exactly what I did re breeding with carriers - as if I hadn't done so in the post before. Do you actually read what anyone else says or is your opinion the only one that counts? Everything I said IS FACT. I don't do theory and especially not with this.

As far as affected pups still being around - no idea. There are varying degrees of affected so if it is being managed then why not. Is it any worse than super vet replacing joints etc - which I think is fantastic but generally more about the owners feelings than what the animals are going to endure. What you also need to remember is that the cases we now know of have been months, even over a year, trying to find out what the problem is. They' ve finally had a diagnosis, the dog isn't in pain so they keep hoping.

When the Kennel Club get their act together and get Antagene to send them the test results, instead of the owners, then those with currently undisclosed tested carriers will be unable to inflict affected pups on the unsuspecting purchasers - of which sadly, there are still far too many. I might add that in my opinion they also need to flag up the untested parents of any tested affected dogs.

You are very fond of throwing statistics around. If Antagene are saying there are less than double figures of affecteds how do you know there are varying degrees of affected? It is quite obvious we still know very little about this.

Despite this continuing witch hunt about people not declaring results what evidence have you that people are not declaring carriers and breeding anyway and selling pups to "unsuspecting purchasers?"

Instead of playing the saviour of the breed and rubbishing everyone who dares to disagree some people might consider how people are approached and the manner of that approach has an effect on how they react.

3 affected pups in the litter of the first one tested. He was pts at 13 months. They are still around having had toes amputated and tails docked twice and apparently ok. How do I know? I bred the dam, sold her to friends who sold the dog to a mutual friend. That's why I wouldn't want anyone else to be in the position of selling what transpires to be an affected pup - I didn't say they had - yet.

As I said before there is a well known line implicated and also a carrier stud dog has been used without the bitches owner/s being aware. I also said that I am not prepared to name them. That still holds. That's down to the Kennel Club.

Judy wrote:

jeffiner wrote: When the Kennel Club get their act together and get Antagene to send them the test results, instead of the owners, then those with currently undisclosed tested carriers will be unable to inflict affected pups on the unsuspecting purchasers - of which sadly, there are still far too many. I might add that in my opinion they also need to flag up the untested parents of any tested affected dogs.

Judy wrote:Good news;
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-r ... -spaniels/

Why oh why do these threads always sink into remonstrations and a perceived Trials versus health testers debate? Please read others' posts and try to calm down before leaping into print, calm reasoned debate is always welcomed on here, we are all entitled to our opinions, going off in one is no help and just antagonises everyone.

Ask yourselves which is most important for the Cockers themselves, winning a Trial or being healthy, before you get into these, imo, unnecessary exchanges. Yes we all want good dogs, yes we should all want healthy good dogs, so basically we should all be in agreement? Why the aggro?

Sorry Judy but where was it made a trialling Vs testers debate? I may have missed that post or perhaps you have knowledge that hadn't yet been shared in this thread?

I did say a PERCEIVED Trials v. Health testers debate, this is how it always comes across to those of us 'on the outside' reading these threads. Way too much talk of using "proven" dogs even if carriers - would it make one iota of difference to the vast majority of owners of Cockers which are worked if the standard of Trial dogs slipped for a few generations? No, does it make a difference to those who work their dogs if the dog has to be put down too young? Yes. So why not work together instead of this perpetual bickering, deep down we all want what's best for the dogs don't we?

Thanks for clarifying. So no one mentioned a test Vs trial divide until you did. You then followed this up to again bring a test Vs trial.

You say on the outside? Outside of what? Working cockers?

I love this PERCEIVED T VsT as many of the dogs I'm seeing test results from are trial dogs, to name a few, one well know popular FTCH. (Boots) Juds FTCH Misselchalke Frantic, OFTW Dolbrenin
Geisha Girl, FTCH Tudorbriar Swift, FTW Iconic Thunderstorm FTW, Trochry Magic of Jarailstar

Clearly the only divide is in your head or perhaps you'd like to create one?

Judy wrote:I did say a PERCEIVED Trials v. Health testers debate, this is how it always comes across to those of us 'on the outside' reading these threads. Way too much talk of using "proven" dogs even if carriers - would it make one iota of difference to the vast majority of owners of Cockers which are worked if the standard of Trial dogs slipped for a few generations? No, does it make a difference to those who work their dogs if the dog has to be put down too young? Yes. So why not work together instead of this perpetual bickering, deep down we all want what's best for the dogs don't we?

Sorry but absolutely 100% it would impact the average non trailer if the standard dropped as most go to trialing dogs for a stud or to a dog that is well bred through trial lines. This then means the quality of the pups drops and then even more so for the next generation, that in turn would make breeding decent cockers even harder as it's only a small gene pool anyway and would take years and even more line breeding to get back to how we are today never mind improving the breed for all.
Like it or not trialing is still the biggest driving force behind keeping our gundogs of today at such a good level for drive and training with all of them being tested for the traits 99% of handlers wish for. You don't have to trial to appreciate what it's done for the breeds, and before anyone steps in to say such and such has buggered this or that up there is and will always be a variety of types with each breed for everyone to find something they do like it simply means that they all have one thing in common and that's the fact that they have been out there for all to see and judge.
Now if we could only get people to be open about testing dogs without all the rubbish that gets attached to it by the same people over and over again, there's no need to be so militant about it, it really does make people just think it's full of idiots and every time the conversation simply goes round in circles because of it. It will happen over time and in a correct manor if only because money will be will the deciding factor as people will just do it to help sell the pups and that's the pro and hobby breeders/trainers alike.

jeffiner wrote:3 affected pups in the litter of the first one tested. He was pts at 13 months. They are still around having had toes amputated and tails docked twice and apparently ok. How do I know? I bred the dam, sold her to friends who sold the dog to a mutual friend. That's why I wouldn't want anyone else to be in the position of selling what transpires to be an affected pup - I didn't say they had - yet.

As I said before there is a well known line implicated and also a carrier stud dog has been used without the bitches owner/s being aware. I also said that I am not prepared to name them. That still holds. That's down to the Kennel Club.

However sad it is I hardly think the evidence of four pups proves there are differing forms of affecteds, maybe it is because some people are prepared to put their pups through more trauma than other people may be but I am sure you will know differently.

Judy wrote:

jeffiner wrote: When the Kennel Club get their act together and get Antagene to send them the test results, instead of the owners, then those with currently undisclosed tested carriers will be unable to inflict affected pups on the unsuspecting purchasers - of which sadly, there are still far too many. I might add that in my opinion they also need to flag up the untested parents of any tested affected dogs.

Judy wrote:Good news;
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-r ... -spaniels/

Why oh why do these threads always sink into remonstrations and a perceived Trials versus health testers debate? Please read others' posts and try to calm down before leaping into print, calm reasoned debate is always welcomed on here, we are all entitled to our opinions, going off in one is no help and just antagonises everyone.

Ask yourselves which is most important for the Cockers themselves, winning a Trial or being healthy, before you get into these, imo, unnecessary exchanges. Yes we all want good dogs, yes we should all want healthy good dogs, so basically we should all be in agreement? Why the aggro?

As I understand it the disease is effectively fatal, it isn't desperately wide spread at present and breeders have a chance to eradicate it inside maybe four generations IF everyone tries. So, what's not to like about that idea?

IMO there's nothing not to like about this idea! I started this thread on the 10th December with a simple........Please test for AMS, why it's turned into a war I can't understand?
There's NOTHING to debate....seems some of you like nothing more than a damn good argument!