Crufts 'gundogs'

[trekmoor]

Not that it's any great distinction or that any number of them have distinguished themselves afield (though some have)

MG

Did these American Cockers compete in trials in competition with springers and cockers Mike ? I find it hard to imagine an American Cocker with that sort of standard of work. Were the trials those cockers competed in restricted to American Cockers ? I am a bit against that sort of trial being used as a yardstick of good gundog work . In Britain some folk would like "breed specific" trials for the HPR breeds. I am not in favour of that. I like the idea of the whole range of breeds competing in the same trial and may the best dog win on the day.

Wullie

[NZShooter]

It's eleven O'Clock in the morning here in NZ, and I just watched the Gamekeepers bit on Youtube, I now feel very tired watching those handlers run around!

[NZShooter]

This was nice to watch though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWONa0V34_s

[crackerd]

Not that it's any great distinction or that any number of them have distinguished themselves afield (though some have)

Did these American Cockers compete in trials in competition with springers and cockers Mike ? I find it hard to imagine an American Cocker with that sort of standard of work. Were the trials those cockers competed in restricted to American Cockers ?

Bill, Gundogguy would know far better than I, but seem to recall there was a lapse of 30-odd years from the late-50s-early-60s when there were no cocker trials in the US at all, and they only resumed when your kind of cocker (field-bred) started coming over in numbers. Gundogguy might also be kind enough to repeat his personal acqaintance with an American cocker that won the only field trial St. Keith Erlandson judged in the US (unless I'm mistaken). But though eligible for field trials, they - American cockers - really haven't resumed as a real player against your cockers in our field trials. And in the US, as I've said before, only two spaniel breeds can even run in field trials, springers and cockers, and they don't run against each other.

Which lets me segue into your other comment:

I am a bit against that sort of trial being used as a yardstick of good gundog work. In Britain some folk would like "breed specific" trials for the HPR breeds. I am not in favour of that. I like the idea of the whole range of breeds competing in the same trial and may the best dog win on the day.

Thing is, I understand why spaniel trials are "segregated" here - as above about the cocker numbers for years and years, and because the springer has always had trials and rates as the gold standard of spaniels.

Now we come to the pointing breeds - and not just HPRs. Each of them declares a "national field champion" each year as determined by a breed-exclusive field trial. Thus you have the NFC Weimaraner, the NFC Brittany, the NFC Gordon Setter (!). Holy moly, talk about devalued titles! Well, maybe I'm just jealous because for retrievers to get a FTCh title, they have to earn it in an "all-in" competition, whether it's tollers and IWS and curly coats and flatcoats and what-have-you. The pointing dogs may be great, but the pointing dog titles are like Saturday morning kiddie football - everybody "wins" a medal just for stepping foot on the pitch.

MG

[pontbeck]

MG
No talk of any of the Poodles wanting to move groups or be considered a gun dog for that matter and I very much doubt there ever will.
My point with the American cocker is that it looks out of place, IMO, in the gun dog group. I can't think of another gun dog groomed and clipped in the show manner of the American cocker. I have nothing , at all ,against the breed but over here , along side many other working breeds, the show side of things have taken it way beyond, in appearance ,what you would think of as a working dog.

[crackerd]

To paraphrase the old saw about Brits and Yanks as one people separated by a common language, Bill, it would seem that we in fact are two people joined together by a common obesity and absurdity in our show dogs.

MG

[Naj]

I don't like the look or gait of show bred dogs but I can't see why they should present any threat to those who enjoy working their dogs, from whatever bloodlines. There's enough info out there to guide the aspiring novice trainer towards working bloodlines, & if you choose to stick to show breeding & are happy with the results, that is up to the individual. If you choose to try to breed a dual purpose dog that you can work & show, that is also your choice & nobody else's business. And if a breed was originally bred as a gundog, as, presumably, the American Cocker was (and is?) then surely it should be shown as a gundog. Aren't Field & Sussex spaniels included under the Gundog Group? Whether they can perform against trials bred or modern shooting lines is, I would suggest, academic.

Naj

[trekmoor]

You are correct Naj, anyone can have whatever breed they choose. I don't like it though when some long-haired dog that simply could not work even if it wanted to is presented to me on the T.V. as a gundog by judges that do not know what being a spaniel entails. The K.C. should be ashamed of themselves if they are describing most of those "gundogs" as being "fit for purpose."

No rough shooter or beater I have ever met would want an American Cocker, they know it could not do the job, so why is this breed still included in the gundog group ? What is the "purpose" of this breed ?

Wullie

[Naj]

There's a member on here who is enjoying working an American Cocker.

Much of the clap-trap you hear on TV sticks in the craw, I admit, but we've long past the days when dog shows were merely something working kennels did with their working dogs to while away the off- season. The breeds have split & so have breeders & competitors. We all know the game. Most who buy a show dog after watching Crufts are drawn to the romanticism of their chosen breed. And why not. Thank heavens they pick a show dog as a pet & not a full bore working bred dog. I know that you rather enjoy showing your dogs but I have no interest in dog shows & won't be brow beaten into thinking mine are in someway second class gundogs because they wouldn't stand a chance in a dog show. I used to get all excited & hot under the collar about these things, many years ago, but a breeder of show Labradors who I was remonstrating with pointed out that he regularly shot over his dogs, & HE was pleased with how they performed, so who was I to tell him that show dogs didn't work. Each to their own!

Naj

[pontbeck]

You are correct Naj, anyone can have whatever breed they choose. I don't like it though when some long-haired dog that simply could not work even if it wanted to is presented to me on the T.V. as a gundog by judges that do not know what being a spaniel entails. The K.C. should be ashamed of themselves if they are describing most of those "gundogs" as being "fit for purpose."

No rough shooter or beater I have ever met would want an American Cocker, they know it could not do the job, so why is this breed still included in the gundog group ? What is the "purpose" of this breed ?

Wullie

My point was not that it had been a working dog but that in it's present show form it stands out in the group . The bouffant legs just do not make it a convincing example of a working dog.