Gundog Training Forum

ips wrote:Your confused, imagine being me

As I have said before Mrs ips chucks a ball with run ins and god knows what. Plus I did set off originally to train for exactly this (in fact one of my very first posts was to ask if this was at all possible, so at least there is one thing I remained pretty consistent on) steady to dummies and game but ball is for play do what you want with it. I did to stop run in with ball for a week or so to see if there was any benefit but i found it tedious as I do enjoy her free play and I have and do use the ball to good effect as a reward. She definitely knows the difference and what is expected so in my defence I think my consistency in that has paid off so I am taking the liberty of awarding myself a pat on the back.

Just back from field in glorious sunshine, no run ins some good stops.

Hi Ips,
Try having two young kids throwing anything imaginable in the house for dog and letting him run in!

Managed to stop it now as I do think it confuses the dog, I also insist on not running in period, purely because I think dogs learn in context, so your dog may know when a ball lands in front of him he can run in, but not if its a dummy, however this is almost dependent on the do recognising what the object is.
I would prefer that the dog knows no matter what it is, it's a cue to sit an wait to be told what to do, as in the field, some falls may be obscured and the dog may 'assume' it's a ball?

Almost conflicting thought process, I think all dogs have the potential to run in when you don't want them to, but if fallen object = arse to the floor, there's no risk of the do assuming differently?

I have been in a wood where you couldn't see them fall necessarily but hear them, I had to have mine on the lead as he was an unsteady nut job, but your dog wouldn't of known why had fallen. Dogs being the optimist = run in?

I think once the dog has a few seasons under his belt you can begin to allow run ins with a ball (in sure people do this) but in the early days I would focus on the que of fallen object = mark and sit personally.

Rm

I am sure your right RM thing is though this running in to a ball is now deeply engrained in her character / behaviour and as I say I would prefer it this way.

I can but only imagine the difficulty you face with two children but what can you do, presumably like my eze yours is primarily a pet and the children should surely be able to interact with the mutt.

They can interact with the dogs - mine have the most ridiculously large collection of soft toys - they are never allowed to be thrown but they can instigate "dead and hold" as a game. They will grab a toy, proffer it to which ever unfortunate is on a sofa and we say dead and take it away then hand it back saying hold. Some of them do a circuit of the room then come back for another round, others will sit there and do many rounds of give and take. The dogs learn dead and hold as a "game" without damaging their retrieving.

I must say that I side with Rm on this - something flies past you, it should mean sit. If 'sit' becomes an 'automatic' behaviour for whatever it is - ball, dummy, pheasant, rabbit - it will be a much quicker response as your dog shouldn't have to think 'Oh, was that a ball? No, it was a dummy, means I should sit', he/she should just instantly plant his/her bum to the ground.

This is were we are at.
You can just see the dummy fall in the distance, sent her on an arm command, bit of messing about picking it up which is not the normal for her.

https://vimeo.com/162683642

Ball rewards are usually given in a different context to 'proper' retrieves flying about or taking the dog unawares so they have no difficulty in discriminating between the two, just as they can discriminate between birds falling out the skies and dummies being tossed about.

Naj

I don't let my dogs run-in on a ball - I throw it for them as a reward and they run to chase/catch it. This is a reward NOT a run-in. Crucially it is also not a game of fetch.

"Run-in" means the dog goes when I don't want it to, "Steady" means the dog goes only when I want it to...

I don't really throw what might be loosely described as fun retrieves. And it does sound as though you do a lot of these which I fully agree with others won't help develop steadiness to proper retrieves.

Ask what you want and how long you want it to take to achieve? Are you happy for your dog to take a long time to learn to be steady in exchange for being able to keep playing one game? Or are you willing to give up something you enjoy to reduce challenges you're having with your dog's training progress? Stopping playing fetch doesn't mean you can't enjoy the dog, it also doesn't mean you can't reward with a ball.

Matt
Good post and exactly as I see. I look on it as an "allowed" run in on ball.

Don't know the answer to your last bit really. All I can say is I am happy enough with the progress all be it probably taking too long for your experienced eyes.

Hmmm... I may not have explained well in that case! Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to play a lot of fetch with your dog to burn off energy before settling down to training - this isn't what I'm advocating at all. Think of the ball as a reward rather than as a toy.

If you reward consistently with a ball and the dog associates the ball with a job well done - then what does it say to the dog if you also reward when the dog has done nothing to deserve it?

If the dog has just dragged you up the road to your training venue, and the first thing you do on arrival is play fetch - do you think your dog just sees that as a game, or might she see that as being a reward for the quick and efficient way it managed to get you to hurry up to go training?

But cheers anyway - this made me laugh:
"all be it probably taking too long for your experienced eyes."

I'm a long way from feeling "experienced" (and far too young)...

If you're happy with your progress - then who am I to judge the pace at which you're moving...

Matt
You are correct in that on occasions she is just running after it like when Mrs ips plays with her. I do same on occasions but try to limit this to the garden. She walks off lead to field, I stop her on whistle at gate, she sits I throw ball to her as reward for stopping. She then runs about in the field with it for five mins then I take it from her send her on a blind to dummy cunningly hidden whilst she was playing on delivery of that sit her up and direction left or right to blind chuched while she did first blind then some steady retrieves then hunting with stops thrown in and ball as reward for stops but these are thrown to her not for her if you see what I mean. I am not saying I never play fetch with a ball but try not too either just before or after training, I used to but now I don't.
Phew its complicated stuff