what breed of dog ?

[Naj]

Nay, nay!

Of course a well balanced dog should have powerful quarters at both ends. Would be a strange looking dog that had muscled rear quarters and a flabby shoulder and front end. Or vice versa. Not sure it's actually possible.

Naj

[munstyman]

As Naj says I would expect a dog to be balanced, but maybe show judges are making the same conclusion Judy . I would think, though that the extra muscle around the shoulder and along the back would be because working dogs not only have to have drive from the rear but are constantly changing direction, often at speed and on uneven ground. The front end takes more of a pounding in those circumstances. I often see young dogs coming into NATs from non working homes, and they can cover good ground when its short grass and easy going, so we're not talking unfit. But they can't hit rough ground for very long before you see them feeling it and slowing up.

[Springfield Pointers]

Of course it must have strong forequarters! How would it stop?

[Naj]

Or jump onto the couch.

[Naj]

You need to go hunt seem real hills, Judy, then you'll maybe see why a dog needs powerful forquarters.

[Judy]

Not talking flabby just not over muscled but I can see I'm going to have to delve into me books to see where that came from! I know Mary Roslin-Williams talks about Labs having a rear wider than their front, maybe thats where the idea comes from.

[trekmoor]

My auld grandpappy told me whether it's a dug, a cuddy or a wummin always look for a good broad bum coz that's where the power comes from !
I was told much the same thing about 10-12 years back by a woman who was a golden retriever fan. She worked her goldies and she showed those same dogs and had been a show judge. She got fewer and fewer judging appointments because she liked to see fit not fat goldies and because she hated to see what she called "big white balls of candyfloss " being dragged around showrings. She'd been left behind by time and by the modern trends in show goldies.

I think dogs should be well balanced fore and aft.....much the same as wummin !

Wullie

[CockerCanuck]

This is an interesting discussion. I admit I had to Google Queen Anne Front to see what it was. However as soon as I saw the pictures on the internet I recognized it. I competed in ESS trials here in Canada in the mid-80's and there were lots of bandy legged little dogs competing then with fronts like this. I don't travel much in those circuits any more but it seems to me that most of the ESS I see now are better so perhaps responsible breeding is reducing this. Most of these dogs seemed quite active and vigorous. However, in the hands of a good trainer and handler it is quite common for a dog to get it's field championship at 2-3 years of age or even younger. It must happen that dogs with poor confirmation can campaign successfully at that age but be broken down by 7 or 8 when a hunter/shooter would still expect his dog to be sound. I would hate to see our gundogs start to look like some of the monsters the show world seems to create. However, some assessment of basic confirmation and soundness would seem to me to make sense.

My current cocker has a nice straight front shoulders and legs but he does "toe out" noticeably. Has anyone any experience or opinion on the impact of this fault on soundness over time?

[bird]

Just by the way my 2 and a half year old male Clumber weighs 25kgs which is 55lbs I think. I would expect him to put a bit more bulk and in particular muscle on from where he is now but I doubt that would make more than a couple of kilos tops. Some of the bigger working line males come in around 30kgs (approx 66lbs)

I can't imagine the spaniel lines will ever come back together with docked tails preventing crufts participation

[Judy]

My Cockers tend to toe in on the move, the oldest is 10.5 and still doing a day's work with a much quicker recovery rate than her owner. Canuck, do you mean when standing or when moving?