Gundog Training Forum

Judy wrote: I do think people who breed working dogs should pay some attention to conformation, I don't mean the show standard but the soundness of the animal, an animal that is correctly angulated / built properly is far more comfortable working all day, is faster and more able.

I always find this a very stange comment for anyone to make about working dog people. Show dogs are bred for showing - so if it's conformation feels right to a cursary inspection by hand and it is pretty and if the judge likes the handler - it gets put up. Could a show judge tell you why an undershot jaw is major fault in show gundog? The show dogs conformation never gets truly tested.

Whereas a working dog working on the moors will do 90 miles a day - so if the dog doesn't have the right build it won't be much use and is mostly unlikely to be bred from. After all an off road vehicle with low profile slick tyres would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot so why wouldn't you check out the conformation of your work breeding stock.

I mentioned it because of the bloody awful dogs I've seen at trials... Cow hocked, out at elbow, Queen Anne legged, etc., etc., presumably they 'go' for long enough to be competitive but they wouldn't be something I would want to look at day in day out. Its not just at trials, you see 'badly built' dogs on every shoot. My Flatcoats and Cockers have all managed to work up to four days a week in huge fields or heavy cover and still be up for more simply because they are built right (and nice to watch moving).

I think conformation is important in any animal regardless of if its show bred or not. I think bad conformation "Could" poss lead to problems. I know it does in horses so it must in dogs. There are alot of excellent gundog breeders out there that I know who breed dogs for the "Shooting Field" who are very much breeding for conformation (or call it good structure or whatever) as well as everything else

When I eventually buy a pup I will be looking at the pups temperament first. Then I will look the pup over for basic conformation. Space between the ears, straight forelegs, e.t.c. Then I will lay a hand over the pup to check what the eye can't see under a puppy coat. Layback of shoulder, turn of stifle, e.t.c. All the things necessary in a working dog to aid movement that work FOR the dog and not AGAINST it. Which is basically what bad conformation does for a dog.
Having said that, there isn't a dog on earth that ticks every box for conformation. Just as there isn't a perfect human or any other animal. It is about compromise when choosing any animal. And when choosing a dog that will be required to work all day it is also about common sense and intuition I think.

Harry

I think Speckle was a one off & Erlandson never advocated the use of show blood,

Erlandson didn't breed Speckle. Will Sloan did and when Will gifted him the dog after she won the Champion Stake for cockers for the first time he didn't say no thanks. As for cockers being in the doldrums it would appear that if Keith appeared with Speckle and Headley with Snipe everybody else was running for third. The background was that when Speckle's mother was in heat there was a foot and mouth outbreak in Northern Ireland. No animal could be moved more than 10 miles. Will had spotted the dog in a back yard jumping up on an outside table to look over the wall and knew he was the only one available within the ten mile radius.
As for whether such a dog would ever contribute to the gene pool I wouldn't really give a toss were I lucky enough to own such a dog in the first place.

When you look old cocker pedigrees you see also a dog named Ardoon Wilgo a full brother of Speckle... And as Speckles granddoughter Gwibernant Snake has been a very dominant dam in cockers.

DesO'Neile wrote:

Erlandson didn't breed Speckle. Will Sloan did and when Will gifted him the dog after she won the Champion Stake for cockers for the first time he didn't say no thanks. .

I know, that's why I mentioned in the post you took the quote from that he had told the Dam's owner to take it to a springer - a dog called Goldeneye Jock, because it was a small dog. I think this goes back to the days when you could have second class pedigree so you could get around the crossbreeding problem. He also said there was a litter brother in Ireland, an ordianry shooting dog, that was reputedly even better. I never saw her run, & she was undoubtedly an outstanding bitch, but a friend of mine who is a pro trainer always said that she lacked a really cockery action & ran & looked like a small springer. Couldn't have been that bad if she won 3 championships, so I never knew if this was sour grapes.

Ulla, Jade of Livermere also had a line going back to her, & he was a prepotent sire, & while some influence will undoubtedly carry over, the relevance surely fades over generations.

Harry wrote:When I eventually buy a pup I will be looking at the pups temperament first. Then I will look the pup over for basic conformation. Space between the ears, straight forelegs, e.t.c. Then I will lay a hand over the pup to check what the eye can't see under a puppy coat. Layback of shoulder, turn of stifle, e.t.c. All the things necessary in a working dog to aid movement that work FOR the dog and not AGAINST it. Which is basically what bad conformation does for a dog.
Having said that, there isn't a dog on earth that ticks every box for conformation. Just as there isn't a perfect human or any other animal. It is about compromise when choosing any animal. And when choosing a dog that will be required to work all day it is also about common sense and intuition I think.

Harry

Whilst I agree with what you're saying Harry, I think you need to be looking more at the parents than the pups in order to ensure that you end up with what you're after. An eight week old puppy is going to bear little resemblance to the 2 year old dog you take shooting. However, hopefully it will carry a mixture of traits and build of it's parents. Quite what mixture that might be has been discussed at length on here quite recently and maybe worth a read?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9583#p116834
Just as an example, just by playing with an 8 week puppy, would you be able to tell if it was going to grow up with a hard or soft temperament? I know I couldn't!

Yes, a look at the parents is an advantage if it's possible. That might give you an idea of what your pup might 'look' like. From my experience though, a good look at the grandparents was a lot more useful.
But when it comes to temperament in adults, a lot of the time you are looking at the product of a dogs upbringing and training. I have sold 'bold' pups in the past to see them turn into a nervous shadow of what they were. And alternatively, I've sold shy pups, only to witness them months after trying to tear pieces out of everything in sight at obedience classes ! At 8 weeks old I could certainly tell you if one of my pups had a 'hard' or 'soft' temperament. And if I raised it, it would stay that way. I couldn't say if they would stay that way once sold to new owners in a completely new environment though.

Harry

Whatever dog ive taken on ive worked hard to make sure they succeed regardless of breeding for the job Ive wanted them to do and can quite safely say that all 6 of my dogs can be taken out and work without shaming me and do the job needed. Some of them like Otter with show breeding have taken a bit longer and drake who has a HUGE working drive (working bred) is taking longer too as he is wild but all my dogs have proven themselves to be assets to the job I do. Every dog IMO can be worked with and it depends on the skill/patience and understanding of the person training them to be determined enough to put that time and effort into them to make it succeed I attended lessons with Drake at a very well known trials chap as I think Drake has huge potential to trial and I asked him was he capable of being such a dog, he said he was however at the age of nearly 3 ive never worked towards that as I dont have the skills to do it as my main function with my dogs is the shooting field so here we have a dog who has great potential and he hasnt been used to that potential. Id go with a dog of your choosing and work with that dog till you succeed. Its quite a scary thing taking on a new dog as we all worry we are gonna fail but grab every opportunity and make the most of what you have got.. I have and im quite happy with my lot and wouldnt change the way ive done anything with any of them for the world