It's all about the training!

[Nickheref]

Just to add if the first time he had gone outside his beat and flushed a bird wildly which I could not have shot I would have been on the whistle the second time to turn him but he showed me he understood what was going on and was actually working with me not just finding as much game as possible.

[Naj]

Distance is relative and relevant, Kibble. A pointing breed can be left to hunt out much farther than a flushing breed like a spaniel, which needs to stay within gunshot, say 15-20 yards of the handler. A dog used for beating can be allowed a bit of leeway on this, providing that it is still working under control, but you don’t want it much more than 25 yards away and preferably closer if there are a lot of birds up front. The problem is that a dog that has become accustomed to hunting at extreme range is often reluctant to hunt closer to the handler, so it’s best err on the cautious side when it comes to range and keep them tighter. In that way when they do take in a bit of ground to make bird contact they’re still relatively close to you. A dog that pulls forward on a bird (or rabbit) will do so for two reasons. One is because it has air scented the bird and is zeroing in on the scent with a high head carriage. The other is that it has found a hot foot scent and has its head down on the track. Often it can be a mixture of both. Even a spaniel can air scent from 40-50 yards away on open ground so taking in that amount of ground is to be discouraged. They can track a foot scent much farther, at speed, and a pheasant moving on ahead of the hunting dog can soon pull it out of bounds when it’s on the track. So, as Nick says, it’s a bit of a balancing act to allow them to pull a few yards on occasion to make good on some hot scent in front but being able to call them back and keep them hunting closer if it’s obviously going to take them out of bounds. In a beating line you’ve always got birds moving on ahead so you need a modicum of control, otherwise your dog will just keep following its nose.

[Kibble]

Thanks Nick

How much further out had Mia gone?

On this occasion Mia had only gone about 30 yards There is a river on one side of this patch of trees and a ditch on the other side. I take her there to limit her beat and slow her down a bit (it has rough cover). In the field, she will usually hunt the verge, so again the width is limited but I am afraid this encourages her to pull forward.

If you have read IP's thread you will have seen his nerves on getting ready for his first day expecting his to be the worst dog out , he was told it wouldn't be!

I have read ips' thread. Early on he says that his dog didn't pull out, at least not before he took her beating. Mia doesn't stay close, although I am unsure how she would be with other dogs about. She usually comes to me when we see another dog and I have encouraged this.

You highlight something that I have thought about for some time, dogs who hunt a very tight pattern without any deviation, other than doing the same bit of ground 3 or 4 times because at the pace they are running they have to do the same bit of ground a few times or move forward faster than the handler or hunt wider ie when hunting a very tight beat they almost have to mark time and have either been taught to ignore their nose (or not trust it) or didn't have one in the first place otherwise why go over the same bit of ground 3 times. Neither of which is much good and seems to have forgotten why we use dogs to hunt game. You won't see a pointer, setter or hpr do the same bit of ground over and over again.

There is a nice band of cover with a few trees down the middle of a sloping field. I take Mia to hunt down this in the hope that she will understand the turn whistle. The wind usually blows up the hill. She will hunt down nicely, but if I suggest we hunt back up she messes about. Perhaps I should be able to demand we hunt back up, but it does seem unnecessary.

Last week I was hunting my young dog and three times (in the space of an hour) he pulled rather wider on his hunting beat than his usual range, in every case it was because he had located a bird. Two he flushed across me and one started to come across but turned forward when it saw me. I killed the two who flew across me and a better shot than me would have killed the bird that flew forward.
When he first pulled out wider I could see him but wasn't sure what was going on and so was stressing a bit and thinking of turning him but wanted to know why he had suddenly chosen to go wider so just watched, by the third time I knew that he knew what he was doing and wasn't going rogue! We both learnt a lot about each other that morning! BUT I am not sure I would be prepared to give his sister such leeway at the moment as she still sees her job as solely finding game and isn't so bothered about it being shot.

More than once I have watched Mia follow a trail out to the side and flush a bird, which flew back over me and a little ahead. I thought it was fortuitous, but maybe not.
As you shoot the birds that your dog flushes for you it completes the task. As I don't shoot I am not quite sure how Mia can understand what we are supposed to be doing.

[Nickheref]

I suspect your dog learnt to hunt before you really started your training, hence it can and will draw out to find game. I do that deliberately (at the same time as teaching the stop etc in a different environment) as I need dogs who can find game, using the wind etc when rough shooting as game is pretty scarce but many trainers do not like it, frankly if the dog has real drive it is pretty hard to stop unless you never give it any freedom. I have seen a youtube film titled "Do Not Walk Your Dog". Personally I think you end up with a better dog but it does tend to take longer to really get them to understand what you want. You mention a bit of ground that you hunt bounded by a river, I often do the same either with a river, decent fence or just ground that won't be of any interest to the dog to hunt (short grass) to teach the distance I want. The dog is much more likely to turn if the ground is unlikely to hold game or it can't go any further. Lining on a bird, following foot scent of an unshot bird can and will be a problem beating as the dog will soon realise there are even more birds further forward or in my case will pull on and flush the bird out of range, in North America I think it is encouraged but again that is because they are hunting in areas where there are few birds by comparison with a UK driven shoot and they want to catch up with it (If I have got that wrong one of the boys from across the pond will put me right). That is when you need the bomb proof stop and recall on a shoot over here!

[Kibble]

Distance is relative and relevant, Kibble. A pointing breed can be left to hunt out much farther than a flushing breed like a spaniel, which needs to stay within gunshot, say 15-20 yards of the handler. A dog used for beating can be allowed a bit of leeway on this, providing that it is still working under control, but you don’t want it much more than 25 yards away and preferably closer if there are a lot of birds up front. The problem is that a dog that has become accustomed to hunting at extreme range is often reluctant to hunt closer to the handler, so it’s best err on the cautious side when it comes to range and keep them tighter. In that way when they do take in a bit of ground to make bird contact they’re still relatively close to you. A dog that pulls forward on a bird (or rabbit) will do so for two reasons. One is because it has air scented the bird and is zeroing in on the scent with a high head carriage. The other is that it has found a hot foot scent and has its head down on the track. Often it can be a mixture of both. Even a spaniel can air scent from 40-50 yards away on open ground so taking in that amount of ground is to be discouraged. They can track a foot scent much farther, at speed, and a pheasant moving on ahead of the hunting dog can soon pull it out of bounds when it’s on the track. So, as Nick says, it’s a bit of a balancing act to allow them to pull a few yards on occasion to make good on some hot scent in front but being able to call them back and keep them hunting closer if it’s obviously going to take them out of bounds. In a beating line you’ve always got birds moving on ahead so you need a modicum of control, otherwise your dog will just keep following its nose.

Thanks Naj
I have watched my dog both follow air scent and follow a trail. She could do this even when she was just a puppy, which took me by surprise.

Air scent caught me out on a moorland track with an up slope to the side. Thinking back I expect the wind was coming down the slope. Pup ran a long way through a fence, flushed a couple of birds and took a while to come back. There was no way I could catch her. I waited behind a gorse bush, so she got a shock. Up until then her recall was good, but she probably hadn't had that temptation before. With experience I might not have exposed her to the possibility of that temptation until recall was ingrained or until stop was ingrained.

Similarly I was walking her along a track, when I saw a pheasant walk up the field to one side, cross the track and dissappear into the crop on the other side. Pup didn't see the bird as she was too busy sniffing the ground. When we came to where the pheasant crossed. Pup followed the trail, but she went back down the trail into the reeds, where the bird had come from. She didn't find a bird, although I guess there might have been another one hiding there. I am not sure she would follow a trail backwards now. I think she would recognise a trail direction. With experience I might have put her lead on when I first saw the pheasant.

My inexperience means she has had lots of opportunities to teach herself hunting and at least she remembers where I am.

I have taken your advice about context on board. The moors are too much this time of year. The beach makes for a relaxed walk. The field has some challenge, but I think she is learning to cope with this environment.
I have learnt a lot, but still a long way to go.

[Kibble]

I suspect your dog learnt to hunt before you really started your training, hence it can and will draw out to find game. I do that deliberately (at the same time as teaching the stop etc in a different environment) as I need dogs who can find game, using the wind etc when rough shooting as game is pretty scarce but many trainers do not like it, frankly if the dog has real drive it is pretty hard to stop unless you never give it any freedom. I have seen a youtube film titled "Do Not Walk Your Dog". Personally I think you end up with a better dog but it does tend to take longer to really get them to understand what you want. You mention a bit of ground that you hunt bounded by a river, I often do the same either with a river, decent fence or just ground that won't be of any interest to the dog to hunt (short grass) to teach the distance I want. The dog is much more likely to turn if the ground is unlikely to hold game or it can't go any further. Lining on a bird, following foot scent of an unshot bird can and will be a problem beating as the dog will soon realise there are even more birds further forward or in my case will pull on and flush the bird out of range, in North America I think it is encouraged but again that is because they are hunting in areas where there are few birds by comparison with a UK driven shoot and they want to catch up with it (If I have got that wrong one of the boys from across the pond will put me right). That is when you need the bomb proof stop and recall on a shoot over here!

Thanks Nick.
I posted my reply to Naj before reading your post, sorry.
You are of course absolutely right. I took a puppy onto gamey ground and she taught herself to hunt. At the time I only had rudimentary recall in a boring field, but even then she would chase off any crows orpigeons that landed.
Obviously I could have done things better and generally been more aware. Mia is teaching me lots. I am fortunate in having different environments to train in. It would be lovely to have a bomb proof stop and recall, even in the face of extreme temptation. This may be a way off.
It doesn't really matter to me if it takes time, and I have not given up yet.
In the meantime the beaches are lovely in winter.

[Naj]

Kibble, your dog will quickly learn to follow the correct direction of the track rather than take the ‘heel’ scent.

I’m glad you understand the importance of ‘context’ but now you need to think in terms of training in context. You can get fabulous results in the context of training on the seashore or on gameless ground but these will all disappear when you move to the context of gamey ground. If you’re interested in delving deeper this is because you’re changing the Antecedent element (ABC of behaviour change). So you need to take the behaviours that you’ve taught on the beech and retrain them in many different areas, gradually increasing the level of distraction.

I’d think in terms of engagement, first, because without engagement your dog won’t be in the right frame of mind to learn anything. A common approach is to allow a dog time to settle in a new and/or distracting environment, on a short line if needed. Then when it gets bored with its surroundings and turns to you to see what you’re up to you immediately reward it for making contact and now you’ve got its attention run through some easy and fun games that it knows well. Simple pattern games are great for engagement because they are familiar routines that become a predictor of rewards to come. Then once you have the dog’s attention you can move on to the behaviours it knows and which you want to proof.

[Judy]

Kibble, your dog will quickly learn to follow the correct direction of the track rather than take the ‘heel’ scent.

I have my doubts on this, I watched my 5 year old back track on a runner recently, unfortunately she was too far away to handle so we lost that one. In her defence she's not that experienced what with two seasons of covid and then bird flu but even so.

[Naj]

Kibble, your dog will quickly learn to follow the correct direction of the track rather than take the ‘heel’ scent.

I have my doubts on this, I watched my 5 year old back track on a runner recently, unfortunately she was too far away to handle so we lost that one. In her defence she's not that experienced what with two seasons of covid and then bird flu but even so.

Presumably she cut the line farther along and went the wrong way. I doubt you’d see a more experienced dog fumble on a line like that so I guess it was just part of the learning process. They might take the heel scent for a few yards or cast around the fall area a few times but will quickly realise which way the scent leads. I’ve found cockers to be great on taking a line. A bit of independence might help! My Viz is great at following a line, both of a moving bird or a wounded runner, but has the curious habit on shot birds of casting around the fall area and taking the line for 10 yards or so then casting back to the fall and repeating this procedure a couple more times before setting off with determination. It’s like she’s just making sure.

[munstyman]

I have to agree with Naj on this, sorry Judy. Dogs are far better at understanding scent and it's relevance to it's target goal than we are. Once they make an association they will use the various scents to that advantage, and do so in milliseconds which makes it hard for us to comprehend.
However it is not always perfect and dogs following a line can and do over shoot a change in direction of the quarry by doing so. An experienced dog will quickly realise this and stop and backtrack and ground scent for a while more thoroughly, even when it has reestablished contact with foot scent. An inexperienced dog will start to quarter search again. Because it is now a head of the game, unless it turns back it will be less likely to reestablish contact unless the change of direction of the game was slight.
Those of us with long nose dogs tend to have an easier time of getting to grips with scent because the distances that our dogs engage with game and scent is much greater and so the so the changes in how the dog is using the various scents appears slower and more easily to recognise. Those with the flushing breeds are at the disadvantage that it all happens thick and fast. ( Sometimes too fast, in that the dog `bumps' the bird instead of finding it Something I have another concern about when watching some Spaniel FT judging

I’d think in terms of engagement, first, because without engagement your dog won’t be in the right frame of mind to learn anything. A common approach is to allow a dog time to settle in a new and/or distracting environment, on a short line if needed. Then when it gets bored with its surroundings and turns to you to see what you’re up to you immediately reward it for making contact and now you’ve got its attention run through some easy and fun games that it knows well. Simple pattern games are great for engagement because they are familiar routines that become a predictor of rewards to come. Then once you have the dog’s attention you can move on to the behaviours it knows and which you want to proof.

Again, the man is talking sense Kibble you've made good progress in reading your dog, now you have to start to engage with it in what it is doing and tuning it into that balance of it's ability and function to `your' requirements. i.e. hunting for you not with you as a tag along.
Teaching the dog all the control in gameless ground is great to establish commands and association, and this still needs to continue. But you now have to bring it to ground containing game and get the association with finding game, flushing it and stopping. ( Praise/reward then sending on again ) It is at this stage you begin to realise why we've been going on and on and on about having a good stop It makes it so much easier to establish the function of the dog, to the dog, is to find and flush but not chase.