It's all about the training!

[Kibble]

Thanks Nick
I can totally see how shooting over your own hunting dog joins the dots, for both of you. In my mind, my dog is finding birds for me, even though there is no end product (unless she catches a bird Oops).

I now appreciate that there is more to 'context' than location and weather. Where I live, time of year is certainly a major factor. This is not only about the prey, but also the vegetation.

I have read about delayed impulse in puppies. Also I found an interesting article by a neuroscientist, on live brain imaging (I think MRI) in dogs. She explained that the brain area responsible for impulse develops before the area responsible for control. I found this helpful to explain the unwelcome behaviour of adolescence. With more experience I would have managed this better.
I certainly think Mia has more self-control now than she had a year ago.

Mia and I are making progress with the rewarding game of 'pretend I didn't drop that dummy.' it is rewarding for her, because she gets a much longer and more challenging retrieve (and praise) if she doesn't anticipate and pop back. It is rewarding for me, because I get a perfect off lead 'heel' while she is wanting to be sent.
I still have lots to do on steadiness, but making progress.

[Kibble]

I am now sometimes using a ball as a reward for a prompt and tidy return to hand of a dropped dummy, cueing the ball as suggested (thanks Naj). This has reduced the tendancy for Mia to do a victory spin and generally improved this 'game' and engagement.

I am using a field with fairly short grass, some scent, and a slope.
Occasionally she brings the dummy back, drops it right by my feet, and proceeds to sniff the ground beside it. She is not running away and I know that if I reach down for the dummy she will grab it. I am not sure how to stop this becoming a habit. My instinct is to play catch with the ball, until she gives me the dummy. then what, reward or not?

I am not very good at reading the wind direction (unless it is very windy). When I send Mia to find a seek back, my indication of direction might be wrong for the wind or generally inaccurate. She seems to manage distance fine on short grass. Does my poor direction sign matter?

There is another field, with longer grass and more scent. I have found out that this is much harder for her and I am avoiding any retrieving in this field for now.

[munstyman]

Occasionally she brings the dummy back, drops it right by my feet, and proceeds to sniff the ground beside it. She is not running away and I know that if I reach down for the dummy she will grab it. I am not sure how to stop this becoming a habit. My instinct is to play catch with the ball, until she gives me the dummy. then what, reward or not?

The dropping it and waiting till you go to pick it up before grabbing it is her `new ' game variant ( see posts on boring/over doing exercises ) If you don't want her to do it don't play that game, simples.
You reward the last behavior that the dog gives you that you want. The dog doesn't associate a previous behavior with the reward unless your timing sucks or the reward isn't high enough i.e. meh
Remember you can work on the delivery separate to the retrieve if there is a risk of reducing the enthusiasm of retrieving by formilising the delivery.
Reading the wind is a skill and like all skills you need to practice and practice then practice some more. Virtually all those that I have helped train their dogs have all been too keen to get on and `do stuff' with the dog when the first thing they need to do is check the wind. I make a point of asking them about the wind before they take the lead off, and soon, like good dogs they start to preempt me before we begin . It really is as easy as standing still and observing the moving vegetation and feeling it on your skin. ( There is a reason for terms like `cheek wind' , `head wind' and `back wind' ) You can make a big thing of it and wave your hands around and up and down, blow smoke, pick up dust or dried grass, but none of that is necessary and it does not impress those of us in the know especially when you then send the dog off wrong to the wind
You must also remember that the wind changes as you move across the ground and through different types of cover. Eddies and swirls can change the direction and strength of the wind relative to where the dog is and where you are and is yet another reason to learn to read the dog.
I will warn you though, it gets addictive and you'll find yourself `checking' the wind as you push your shopping back to the car across the car park ... just don't be one of the wavy arm types or you'll get some strange looks
The more you learn about the wind and get it right the more the dog will trust your direction as it will be easier for it to get it right and become more confident. On seek backs it is good practice to check the wind when you drop the dummy and be aware of it all the way to the point you send the dog , noting any changes so you can best direct the dog, or at worse understand if the dog gets it wrong. Never be afraid to go back and check the wind if you see the dog turns unexpectedly a different direction. The dog is rarely wrong and it is a good opportunity to learn.

[shnazzle]

Have you considered back-chaining the delivery?

When I haven't done this, the dogs tend to do the ol' "oops dad, I dropped the bird/dummy...let me just pick it up...oh dear..I'm struggling.." all the while just nibbling away and doing what they do naturally. Therein lies the point...dogs do not deliver anything to hand naturally. Retrievers will retrieve, but putting it in human hands was never on the routine.

The dogs I have done this with all deliver very nicely and let go, but also carry the hold with more finesse. You can also tell by the amount of slobber where their head is at. Should be pretty dry.

There's a good piece on this in the Reference Section > Training Reference called "Back-Chaining".

It's easy to do in the house

[Naj]

The ground sniffing after dropping the dummy could well be displacement behaviour because the dog feels under pressure, perhaps because you are anxious to get the retrieve back to hand. I don’t think I’d play about with the ball to get the correct response. As Munstyman points out this is too much after the event. You could just pick the dummy up and toss it a yard or so and encourage delivery back to hand and then reward that, but a preemptive approach would be better and if she looks like dropping it then walk backwards quickly while encouraging her in or turn and walk off while calling her to heel and take it off her while on the move.

You could also look at why she might be dropping it. If you’re insisting on a sitting delivery then this might be aversive to her. I’ve seen people messing up perfectly good recalls (even when they’re using ‘rewards’) because they then insist on the dog sitting before they give a reward. Raising and lowering the criteria for reward should be fluid and not set in stone. With the ‘parading’ and/or playing keep away Chirag Patel’s Counting Game on u tube is an effective remedy and worth looking at. The dog quickly engages in the game and starts coming straight in and then you can work on the delivery to hand.

Short grass where the dummy is easily seen quickly gets boring for a dog, especially if it’s done similar retrieves in the same places many times before, and this can lead to them embellishing the retrieve. Try to find more interesting places with longer grass or light cover. And you can funnel the dog back to you by standing just through a gateway or natural channels of cover or tracks with dense foliage either side. If the dog finds the environment more interesting than your dummies then try spicing them up be taping dried wings or rabbit skin to them. Wine corks in an old hiking sock are irresistible to the dogs I’ve had, as are three tennis balls stuffed down a sock. A favourite toy would also do.

I agree totally about the importance of reading the wind, but if your ‘seek back’ is the same as a memory retrieve I’d say it was just a case of sending the dog back the way you came.

[Kibble]

Many thanks.
I have done a version of back chaining to effectively (almost completely!) solve a dummy ragging problem. When I think about it, with benefit of your advice, I believe Mia's dropping, sniffing, digging 'game' may be a variant of ragging. It is probably driven by frustration (Mia's) and as suggested I need to pre-empt or maybe just wait for her. She will usually give me the dummy if I just wait. I know I have changed up the retrieving game by working on steadiness and she is trying to get that right. I can drop dummies all round her in the garden now, but not in the field yet.
There is a narrow patch of rough cover, with some trees down middle of the field. Mia seems to find a dummy easily there, which surprises me as I thought the trees would interfere with the wind.
The field has quite a steep slope so I can throw the dummy a good way out, away from the line I am walking. I suppose that's almost like a blind retrieve. All I am doing is sending her in the general direction of where it landed.

Learning to read the wind would be cool, so I will try harder.
If the dummy is down wind, she might go too far and have to work back in. I should be able to tell her when she is about the right distance, so I should try and land the dummy where I know where it is, such as in a clump of reeds. If there is a cross wind, I should send her up a bit, so she will catch the scent. However, as you suggest, she doesn't really need help on short grass.
Training is becoming more interesting now that I know more and Mia is more willing to play 'my' games.

However, I took her on the lead to where there are usually pheasants this afternoon. She hopped up on a low wall and there was a pheasant calmly pecking about in long grass about 30yards away. Mia was shaking. I got her to sit and she calmed down with stroking. I don't know if this was the right thing to do, but it was better than having her lunge and scrabble. It reminded me that we have a way to go still.

[Kibble]

The ground sniffing after dropping the dummy could well be displacement behaviour because the dog feels under pressure.

You could also look at why she might be dropping it.

Short grass where the dummy is easily seen quickly gets boring for a dog, especially if it’s done similar retrieves in the same places many times before, and this can lead to them embellishing the retrieve. Try to find more interesting places with longer grass or light cover

I have been watching my WCS.
There is a nice patch of trees, and at this time of year there is light cover under these trees. If I walk into the wind, and let her walk a bit ahead and sniff about, I can throw a few dummies out and behind. She is not really quartering, but she stays fairly close and knows where I am.
My plan was to then hunt her back down wind, so she would find the dummies. She finds the dummies, but there is no obvious hunting pattern. It is more like retrieving.
The good thing is that she brings the first dummy back quickly and will wait a few seconds to be sent for the next.
However, I am not sure if I am just confusing things.

I think some of the ground sniffing is because it is interesting ground and she is distracted from bringing the dummy back. It seems to help if I let her sniff out the area first, and be more careful not to overdo the retrieving, and avoid letting her get bored or tired or both.

I would like to spice up the dummies, but I don't want to go back to ragging or similar. I already know that she will pick up pretty much anything. Fortunately, she has become more selective about eating carrion.

[Judy]

Re steadiness; have you taught Mia to sit and stay as a separate exercise? Will she sit while you walk away from her and back / walk around her? These days we do fun chase retrieves separate from general obedience then when my dog is good and staying put I bring the two together, I've found this to work well for me and my Cockers.
The 'fooling about' after bringing the retrieve back is interesting, I had a Cocker (or two) who would willingly come back and give me the retrieve but when I tried to get a sit and present they would drop the dummy then sit. In the end I compromised, gimme the dummy then sit, that resolved the dropping.

[Nickheref]

I always smile about the sitting delivery having such importance at training classes, some dogs do it naturally others don't but it doesn't really matter when your stood in 6 inches of murky mud, you just want the bird found and put in your hand!

[Naj]

I always smile about the sitting delivery having such importance at training classes, some dogs do it naturally others don't but it doesn't really matter when your stood in 6 inches of murky mud, you just want the bird found and put in your hand!

I don’t even teach a dog to ‘sit’ these days.