Gundog Training Forum

Livvy Pond Woods - 1.30 p.m. - Drizzly with a moderate wind blowing.

Dogs - Charlie, Dax, Dixie and Billy.

I'm still staying very close to home. I would like to go to the estate about 15-20 miles from me to work the dogs on the remaining pheasants but just at present doing this would keep me away from home for too long.

I began by hunting the dogs in "shot's each" through the woods and it was a bit hectic ! Both Dax and Billy had remembered they found and caught a rabbit in there yesterday and hunted furiously for another one. Billy in particular was "pulling" out very badly and was not too bothered about turning to whistle either. Both Billy and Dax got "remonstrated " with for this failing. Charlie was corrected for the very same thing even though he hadn't found a rabbit in the wood yesterday. Being Charlie his response to a jowl shake was to first shake himself once I'd released him, then give me a cheeky grin and then bugger off again ! Charlie is great fun just as long as you don't want to hang on to your hair follicles.

As soon as I cast Dixie off she was gone. She was heading back to the rabbit I dumped yesterday ...... she can do memory retrieves just fine when it comes up her hump to do them ! I'm having to use too much whistle for all the dogs. I may do a few tennis ball hunts to bring the dogs back in a bit.

Having reached a gravel pathway with woods and some rank heather to either side of me I began to do some retrieve training. Mainly directional stuff at which Dixie was considerably better than I'd expected today. Dax was spot on and so was Charlie . Billy had done just two dummies when he got bored with it all and while supposedly hunting for a dummy in the woods he buggered off into the wild blue yonder to look for another rabbit probably !

A strip of bushes growing among a few fallen trees, bogland and rank heather got hunted on the way back by Dixie and by Dax. Dixie worked O.K. her range was fine and her pace was very good but if we encountered an occasional gorse bush or bramble bush I had to tell her to go in. She didn't penetrate them of her own volition.
Dax , having had a "row" during his earlier hunt, now hunted very well . I had no problems at all with him.

We reached the football pitches and at the corner of one of them I tossed out 3 dummies near that corner then walked the dogs to heel to the diagonally opposite corner. I'm not sure of the distance but it was at least 100 yards. I wanted to see if Dixie would go the distance rather than mess about partway out as she usually does. If she can do that distance for a rabbit in woodlands I couldn't see why she can't do it over the short grass of a football pitch.

She did the first run-out very well but went off - course when sent for a second dummy...... I think she had that dead rabbit from yesterday in her mind rather than a dummy. A yell from me at 70 yards distance re-focused her brain cell and she corrected her run out and picked a dummy. When sent for the last of the dummies she began uncertainly. In her opinion she'd already done that job. I urged her out further and at about 30 yards from me she "remembered" the dummies area, ran,the rest of the way out and completed the retrieve.
She'd ran about 600 yards or more within 5 minutes which should have wobbled some fat off her. I was now happy to know that she can, without doing umpteen "whirlygigs" do memory retrieves.

Wullie

It is well after 1 a.m. in the morning here but I can't sleep coz I'm too damned sore ! I took the dogs out for their late night walk and Charlie found a fox and chased it to hell and gone. I blew recall and he eventually returned so pleased with himself that he did a full paced gallop jump up and stuck ra heid into my valuables ! I don't think my wee army of hielanders will be fit enough to march again when the bugle calls for quite a while ! Charlie is now snoozing happily while I cannot. Why I like that dog I do not know !

Wullie

Livvy Pond and woods - 1p.m. - Drizzly, moderate winds.

Dogs - Rosie and Dixie.

The dogs were each given a very short individual hunt in the woods interspersed with a few whistle stops at very close range and some dummy throws. Both dogs were steady to the dummy throws after just one easily stopped run in from Rosie.

Dixie was not marking the dummies. She now does the same as all my own dogs and watches me instead for permission to go and retrieve. I have discovered that this does not matter a toss when it is game that is falling. They all mark the fall only too well then !
What my dogs do would work against me in a test but although I try to do a couple of tests per year tests are not what I keep gundogs for.

Rosie did mark the dummies and she picked them too but then reverted to dropping them, this time while she was still several yards from me. I began to form the impression that she was pulling my plonker so I gave her a jowl shake and put the next two dropped dummies back into her mouth, made her hold them and then give them to me accompanied by a lot of praise. She got the message and didn't drop any more dummies.

Next came a bit more steadiness and directional work using two dummies and with both dogs sitting facing me 20 feet away in a rough grass field. A dummy was thrown to the left and to the right of the dogs and then I sent a specific dog for a specific dummy. It is quite a big incentive to a sitting dog to break that sit to run after the dog that has just crossed directly in front of it and only a few inches away from it as the designated dog is sent for a dummy. Both dogs were very good at this exercise.

I finished as I often do with a memory retrieve per dog. Once more this was done on a football pitch. Both dogs did fine at 60 yards.
It looks like my picking up team for next season will have a vizsla as a permanent member . Dixie should be back with her owner long before then.
I may be getting an odd looking little cocker bitch in for training shortly as she is now approaching 6 months. I know her sire and I like him , I trained her dam and I liked her too but this pup not only looks a bit "odd" she is a bit of a nutcase too ...... I am told even more so than the average cocker. That does not surprise me as her sire reminds me very much of Charlie , he has the same self confidence and utter arrogance that he is right and everyone else is wrong. The dam is Roxie the reject trial cocker ...... apparently rejected because she could not be controlled around game or even little tweety birds !
I think this little pup is also a kind of a reject. I think she was the last one left from the litter.

Wullie

Rosie and I headed over into Fife today for a day out with Polmaise and Radar trying to get the dogs to hold point ...... assuming they pointed in the first place ! We had over a dozen cock pheasants ready and waiting to be "found" and released. Our release cage was a modified catch'em alive rabbit trap of mine which was home manufactured. So far it has caught pheasants and it has caught magpies but hasn't caught a single rabbit ! It had about 30 feet of string attached to pull it over with when the bird was to be released.
Our other bit of "equipment" was about 12 feet of heavy elastic rope to attach to the dogs. They did quite a bit of horizontal and vertical bungee jumping while attached to that rope ! Robert thinks this elastic rope brings a dog to a gentler halt. I think it makes it difficult to determine just when to hold on tight. I held back on Rosie when she moved within about 6 feet of the cage , next thing I knew she was nearly inside it beside the bird !

The cage was well covered on top and sides by dead bracken and a few twigs , we did not want sight points , we wanted scent points......... but the swirling winds inside the wood made determining from where to begin to approach the hidden bird very difficult.
I have done this a couple of times before with other HPR pups and it isn't the easiest way of training the point and holding the point. A lot of walking back and forward has to be done between the store of birds and the tethered dogs and the cage itself. It took us well over 3 hours to do the work we did get done........ Pro gundog trainers do earn their money !

In the past I did 99% of this kind of training on wild birds , sometimes partridge coveys, sometimes grouse coveys or pairs and sometimes pheasants. I had plenty of wild game available to me then and if it took a pup 100 bumps of game to let the birds themselves teach the pup to point and to hold that point, I didn't mind at all. I don't have any readily available game now so Robert's birds were a god send . I was resorting to what I call artificial point training.

Rosie went first and , as I said, she almost went into the cage after the bird ...... possibly she was a bit confused as to what she should do ? That bird and the cage and even the bracken heaped over it all bore human ( at least I think Robert is ?) hand scent. Robert pulled over the cage to release the pheasant and up it flew ..... and so did Rosie ! She'd have had that bird if I hadn't been hampering her efforts by hanging on tight to the bungee rope !

We gave Rosie another try with better results. I got up to her this time as she did a rather uncertain point a few feet from the hidden bird and cage. I managed to stroke/praise her on the point using a very soft, calming tone of voice. I then warned Robert that I was going to send her in to "flush" and when Rosie lunged forward on command Robert pulled the cage over and Rosie did a wee war dance while trying to catch the erupting bird.

We felt that Rosie might do the point/hold point off the rope on the next bird so we gave that a try. Rosie did point although too close to the cage for my liking , she was within 4 feet of it. I reached her and stroke /praised the point without problems. Then I told Robert to be ready to pull the cage over as I sent her in to flush. A problem did arise then. Rosie did her flush in enthusiastic style , Robert pulled over the cage but this bird chose to run for a few yards before flying . Since Rosie was not held by the bungee rope this time she "flew" after it !

The bird flew through the trees for 50-60 yards with Rosie in hot pursuit. It landed maybe 20 yards in front of Rosie and she was after it in an instant. The bird took to the air again and then re-landed 30 yards further on and ran like stink ...... but so did Rosie ! After a season as a picking up dog Rosie knows all about hard running pheasants and she likes them. She lost the bird for a few seconds among the cover on the side of the hill but I know how determined she is so I told Robert ," That bird is as good as in the bag !"
Rosie caught up to the running bird , collected it and ran back proudly to me with it . She made a reasonably good delivery of this still live bird so I told her she was a good girl and left it at that !

Rosie was then tethered 70-80 yards away from the expected action as we did much the same things with Radar but with me pulling over the cage this time. Radar hasn't had the dubious benefits of a season finding and retrieving or "bumping" pheasants. As yet he isn't too sure about pointing these birdy smells.Rosie has probably 50 to 100 "bumps" worth of experience behind her, Radar has had far fewer finds and bumps but he learns quick !

He was puzzled to begin with but was very soon thoroughly enjoying this new game ! Robert got what he wanted which was to praise his dog once he was definitely scenting the bird. When I pulled the cage over and released the birds Radar nearly had Roberts arms out at the shoulders ! Like Rosie he is a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character when it comes to comparing his usual well behaved self to how he behaves when game is in front of him.

Rosie was now given a chance to point on a dizzied pheasant which Robert placed on the outskirts of a very large and very, very thick sort of dog-rose bush thingy with a few brambles growing through it. He didn't think a dog could get into there with all it's profusion of close to the ground, prickly branches. I hunted Rosie towards the bushes with Rosie hunting free of restraint. She reached near to the edge of the bush and did a flash-point of about half a second and then moved in - fast !

I was expecting her to peg this dizzied bird but the bird had awoken and went deep inside the bushes a while before we'd reached it. Rosie, without hesitation went in there after it. She did a sort of "commando crawl" on her belly to manage this but she did manage it. The bird was flushed deep inside the bushes which hid both it and her from view and flew off - which was another luverly chase through the woods for Rosie ! I managed to recall her minus the bird this time !

This was tried again with the bird more thoroughly dizzied and with Rosie at the end of a long lead. Rosie did an "iffy" point which I praised anyway but this time the bird had been so well dizzied that it was still lying flat out and snoring ! I moved in front but to one side of the still pointing Rosie to try to "wake up " the bird. If I'd sent her in then it was a certain "peg " I reached out and just managed to reach the birds tail and Rosie still pointed. I tweaked the birds tail feathers and saw it begin to wake up so I moved back to Rosie's side while being careful not to come between her and the wind scent of the bird. If I'd interrupted the winds scent cone too much there was a good chance that Rosie would have moved around me and towards the bird in order to keep the same volume of scent coming up her nose.

I restroked the still pointing Rosie and gently slipped her lead off as the bird awoke and began to creep deep inside the bush. Rosie remained on point but I thought she'd held point long enough so I commanded the flush. In Rosie went and seconds later out flew the pheasant. That bush and it's thickly packed branches probably saved that pheasant from being grabbed as the bird could get through or underneath them more easily and more speedily than Rosie could. The bird flew off and was never seen again despite Rosies best efforts to catch it !

When we tried the same thing with Radar he had a bird like Rosie's first one which woke up a wee bit too early and went into the bush. Radar did scent where it had gone but when Robert took off the bungee to let him go inside the bush to flush it Radar came out the far end of the bush and tore off on the long departed birds hot foot scent. Radar gave tracking that bird a damn good try for a long way through the woods but the bird made good it's "escape." ..... Probably just as well. I did things a bit topsy turvy with Rosie . She learned she could catch running birds while picking up which could mean that getting her to not chase will be difficult . Radar is doing things the right way round , he should have taught himself to point game before he learns all about how to catch it !

The remaining birds were released as the dogs watched on the ends of their leads. We needed those leads too. Rosie damn near pulled my arm off and Radar was dancing around on his hind legs trying to recatch them !

I love to watch as dogs begin to put 2+2 together and Radar began to do that today. Rosie had a great time.
Thanks again Robert . Another good day . Robert must have had a good day too ....... his mind was in a spin and he gave me a half-sized bottle of whisky ! .................. It's only taken him 3 years to find it !

Wullie

Glad you enjoyed the day mate ...I know you aint been feeling the best lately (ya lazy auld bugger)
I had Radar out this afternoon, in similiar situ, and gues what?? Yup ,He stood on point (scented, dizzied bird,in hidden cover) ,I walked slowly up beside him...........I could see the bird only just through the cover,it had lifted it's head out of the clapped wing,but still stunned slightly there!...I was waiting for the 'pressure' part of the dog on the bird and it tightened its feathers ,and lowered its head,as if to move off!....I gave Radr the 'get in command', to flush the bird !!!! ....and he did!!!....?
.....
The bird flew out of the cover ............and Radar went an bloody caught it six feet off the ground
Spookily enough ...he delivered it right away! (well I wa only a few feet away anyway!),,and the bird still alive and fit! (well he has a soft mouth !)....I never made a fuss, took the bird, settled/calmed him down,holding the bird by the wings, then released it!.....it flew off and over the high dyke

His handling was good, but his hunting was a gear lower?......I think it may be because you and Rosie were not there??
He could be associating our excursions together with 'real hunting'?..(smart guy )

Thanks for all your help Bill
There is still plenty birds here if you want to run a dug!! ...but there is nae mair whisky

Sounds like a great session gents and written up brilliantly as always!
G

Radars hunting may be not quite as good because without Rosie being there he has no reason to be a "jealous" hunter ? He can take his time a bit more and all of the ground and all of the hunting time is his. He might be pacing himself ? Another reason could be that using planted pheasants is a bit like planting tennis balls for a spaniel pup. The spaniel pup would hunt but it would get close to the handler finds encouraging it to hunt closer. Radar could be learning that he doesn't have to run far from you to find a bird ?

I had quite an interesting afternoon myself today. I took Rosie to one of the Forth Estates for a hunt on the leftover pheasants. I worked her mainly in the remains of the cover strips and only hunted her through one of the woods. She found no game at all in the first cover strip. I've no idea why it should be but the cover strip on one side of this wood seems to hold very little game while the strip on it's other side usually produces 4-10 birds even now that most of them have either been shot or have dispersed.

I used this non-gamey strip as a chance to get a bit of control over her on the whistle . Her whistle recall is fast becoming more than a little bit shaky ! She's a cunning sow when it comes to sitting to whistle. She sits when within 15 feet of me but at 15 yards she just stands instead ! I think she knows that while I can and will run out to her at 15 feet to enforce a sit if I have to, at distances beyond that I'd probably collapse en-route !

To get from this game crop strip to the more productive one on the far side of the wood I crossed the wood itself. Rosie had her first flush from some thick Rhodie bushes in there but as far as I'm aware she did not point first. I got her back and cast her off again and within 10 seconds I saw her swing round to indicate but not to properly point into a small rhodie bush, what is known as a "flash point." She went straight in to the bush and pushed out a cock pheasant but this bird ran instead of flying off. I thought it was as good as in the bag coz Rosie is damn good at catching anything that runs ! She emerged from the bush nose down on the birds track but then she saw it running up ahead, increased her pace to ramming speed and was up it's backside in no time flat. I blew Stop and it was just enough to check her. The bird at last took to wing and made good it's escape ....... I was very pleased about that then and I was even more pleased just a moment or two later when the keeper turned up to see what was going on !

This man is very hard to get hold of on the phone or even at his house ...... but he always seems to be around somewhere ! He gave me full permission some time ago to go anywhere I wanted to on the estate but this time he hadn't seen where I'd parked my car. All he knew was that he'd seen a bird fly from the wood, probably Rosie's first flush, and had investigated the cause of it being disturbed.
I get on very well with this keeper so once more he told me to go ahead and "fill my boots" among the woods and crops. He watched as Rosie hunted down through the cover strip of turnips,dead pea stalks (I think) and multitudes of dead thistles and was most impressed ..... for all the wrong reasons !

Rosie now had the wind up her sails and was going far too far and far too fast through the crop ..... and the height of the crop hid her from view for most of the time. 100 yards out and still going is much too much in that kind of cover. Rosie chucked up one bird after another. I've no idea if she ever even attempted to point ..... I couldn't see her ! The keeper remarked that she'd make a great dogging in dog if she'd hunt out to those distances and he reckoned that if he could persuade me to take her beating instead of picking up then he could sack most of his beating team !

This man likes dogs that just get out there and get on with it ....... he's a great fan of my cockers especially Charlie. He says Charlie is his kind of dog !

Before he left me to it he told me where to head for to find more pheasants...... and he was right . Rosie found and flushed and chased at least another 10 of them ! I saw her point a few of those birds but every point was too far out for me to reach before she went in for a flush. In among the waist high turnips I knew she was pointing coz the turnip tops stopped moving when she did but even on some of these closer range points I made so much noise getting myself through the turnip tops that the bird got disturbed and moved which in turn made Rosie move in with the result being yet another uncommanded flush.
She's getting better at not chasing the flushed birds again though. She chased enough of them today to have the birds reteach her that she cannot catch a flying bird.

It is always pretty obvious when hunting Rosie when she has entered non- gamey ground. Almost at once she ceases to run and to range and just wombles about !

I took quite a number of pics today including one of Rosie watching away a pheasant she'd just flushed ..... I even got the bird in the pic as well as Rosie. For some reason however Photobucket is playing up on me and will not let me upload those pics. If I find out what is wrong I'll post them later.

Wullie

trekmoor wrote:Radars hunting may be not quite as good because without Rosie being there he has no reason to be a "jealous" hunter ? He can take his time a bit more and all of the ground and all of the hunting time is his. He might be pacing himself ? Another reason could be that using planted pheasants is a bit like planting tennis balls for a spaniel pup. The spaniel pup would hunt but it would get close to the handler finds encouraging it to hunt closer. Radar could be learning that he doesn't have to run far from you to find a bird ?

Wullie

Good point!
He is out on the top moor tomorrow ..he will have half a mile to find the first one I will plant with the quad

I've just finished mucking up a lot of writing plus a lot of pics by pressing the wrong button ! I'm not gonna rewrite all that lot !

Here are some of yesterdays pics of Rosie sometimes pointing and sometimes just flushing pheasants on the estate yesterday. The thickness and the height of the game crops made it all but impossible for me to reach her and every bird she found took fright at my noisy approach through the waist high crops which ,in turn, caused Rosie to go right in and flush with no command to do so from me.Working a pointing dog ..... any kind of dog ...... among crops of this kind isn't easy !

The last two pics are of Rosie pointing the caged pheasant today ...... just before she charged the cage ! (I was out with Robert and Radar again.) I made a bad mistake when I switched on the camera .... It makes a "bleeping" sound when taking pics and that small noise broke Rosie's concentration on her point and in she went ! The bird is about 10-12 feet in front of Rosie hidden under the mound of dead ferns and twigs.

Radar did a very good track on a pheasant that escaped from the cage today and ran off into the woods. I'd guess we waited about half an hour before putting him on it's trail. He found that bird well over 150 yards from where it had escaped ...... it flew just fine when Radar reached it !













Today's pics of Rosie's point.





Wullie

Wow, great pics wullie. Lovely looking dog that Rosie, and you caught the moment with the on point photo...excellent