E-Touch / E-Collar training

[cornishman]

Wullie stated never correct your dog in the presense of game , and says he would not use an e collar to stop a dog chasing game correct me if i have got this wrong Bill. So why do we teach the dog the stop whistle and use rabbit pens to steady our dogs on game. when used correctly the collar is not used to stop the chaseing but to remind the dog the stop whistle means stop .I watched one of ceaser milans shows once where he talked about the zones dogs get into and how to distract them to get them out of those zones ,when a dog starts hunting i believe they get into a mindset that is so focused they do not conciously ignore you or the whistle . So to break into that intense focus we chase we scruff we call them all the names under the sun we drag them back etc ,all we do with the collar as Martin says is tap them on the shoulder and say i am here listen to me, the dog knows what the whistle means but is so focused on the hunt that it does not register . A lot of problems are posted on this forum regarding introducing dogs to a shooting day this is when i believe the mindset gets into the red zone as ceaser explained it you have to break into and distract that focus just long enough for the dog to hear and respond to the handlers command or whistle . Have you ever been so engrossed in a tv programe or a movie or a book that you dont hear someone next to you saying something , then they touch you and say did you hear me that is what i believe happens to your dog Brian

[trekmoor]

Brian, I did say that a trainer should not correct a dog in the presence of game but ,if I remember correctly, I added the caveat that I would correct a chase. The dog should not be corrected for finding game but after the flush you are into a different phase of the dogs sequence of doing things. The dog thinks, "hunt - flush - chase - catch - kill - eat. As gundog trainers we only want the first two of these behaviours. So far as dog breeders we have succeeded in most cases in weakening the "kill - eat" part of this completely natural sequence but the "chase - catch" parts need to be subdued, while in the case of most dogs the "hunt- flush" parts only need to be controlled or guided.
If a dog is corrected just a second too soon at the instant of a flush you run the risk of having the dog think it is being corrected for finding game. This could very easily result in a dog which becomes reluctant to hunt or which begins to "blink" game . It detects the game then leaves it and hunts on. I made that mistake just once in my life with a G.S.P. bitch. She would ,after my too soon correction, hunt and point rabbits but would no longer flush them. Other pointer men who have made the same mistake have told me that their dogs ceased to point on that species of game .........I'd got off lightly.

Even the chase part of this sequence needs a bit of thought. It is the chase part that many dogs get the most pleasure from. Take that away too early and you take away the dogs "reward." That's why most trainers start retrieve work by building up the dogs enthusiasm for it by letting a pup run in. I.M.O. much the same applies to hunting , the keenest dogs (the best dogs ?) have usually had and been allowed several chases before the handler begins to change the behaviour to a sit.

My pointing dogs were all allowed to chase birds right off the field when they were young to encourage "birdiness" to steal a U.S. word
Before buying Charlie the cocker as a 10 month old "started" dog I particularly asked if he'd been "free-hunted." He had been and he is now the best of my spaniels at hunting - - - and also the hardest to control ! Free hunted dogs aren't for everyone ! I'm really too old to control such a high-drive dog myself but I still think I'm below 30 in my head ! I like to see 'em GO !

Wullie

[cornishman]

Hi Bill agree with what you say about timing , also like you i let my cocker free hunt to begin with mainly to find out wether i need to gee the dog up or they are keen without any verbal from me cotton is very keen , its D day on the 14th nov she will be introduced to her first shooting day its a preaty relaxed shoot and they dont mind me doing training on the job Brian

[trekmoor]

I think this thread is in danger of being hi-jacked , perhaps it would make a good topic elsewhere

Wullie

[Martindeeley]

The most important part of the collar is understanding. It is a message center, it combines with commands even unspoken ones that are there because of an action or situation to help the dog understand what is required. It is not there to blast them every time they do wrong. Get that clear in your minds now and hold it there forever. We use it once the dog understands, at a level which catches attention and prompts, not as an aversive or punisher unless we need to. A dog comes upon a rabbit, it finds the rabbit and flushes it, at that moment we blow a stop whistle and tap the collar. The collar reinforces the command and it all become automatic. BUT we have to teach the sit to whistle first and know the dog understands that and also understands the collar. It is not an aversive in this instance it brings attention to the whistle and the situation that has been taught. This is essential in your understanding. You can also teach "Leave it" with the collar and then hunt them on. NOT at a level that creates concern and ignoring the bird or rabbit but one that maintains the control as you may do, like an invisible line to the dog.

Remember also you do not have to use the collar for everything. Once more you are the trainer not the collar. With the pointers they did not progress in small enough steps, they did not use the collar at the right level and they did not train so the dog understood. Now is that a fault of the collar or poor training? I know in my mind what it is. They think the collar is a quick fix and it is not substitute for using the correct principles and steps of training. I can drive a car but I would not get in a Formula one and blast that around a track without some training or a little thought about what could happen and make allowances for that. This is a powerful tool but that does not mean we cannot all drive it effectively and successfully.

Someone mentioned Collar conditioning. I hate this expression because it meant getting the dog familiar and accepting of a high stimulation because in the old days that was all they could use. It was done in more than one way. Introduction to, Acceptance and understanding of the collar can be done many ways. Initially I let the dog be on a long line and I find a level the dog just recognizes as he walks around. Just!! Then when I see him recognizing the stim I pull him gently towards me. The moment he makes one step showing his decision I stop the stim. I keep quiet and don’t give a command. Once I see the dog beginning to make the decision to turn towards me when he immediately feels the stim. I begin to add the command "Come on" Meaning follow me. I want to keep him moving, not dashing up to me at this stage. I find myself giving the command slightly first and then tapping the button but in time I begin to do it simultaneous with the command. So now he understands that the collar is a signal to turn towards me. Think about that spaniel men, for quartering. If I have a dog that will not leave me I have to do a few maneuvers so that I can get him away and let him experience the different feeling of the collar. Sometime I will into it with the sit but I personally do not like doing it this way. I want the collar to be associated with a pleasurable action. If you do use it for sit then give a treat when he sits or with the tap of the button show a treat to him and guide into a sit or get him to sit and then throw a tennis ball. But I like the follow me approach first. I used to use momentary but I find with tritronics, my tool of choice, that I nearly always introduce with continuous and then I use continuous by either tapping or holding depending on what I want to communicate. Once taught I tend to Tap the collar simultaneously with the command. I find that the best approach to teach. The only difference may be when a dog is far away from you and the sound is slower than the stimulation transfer signal. So it is a whistle then tap.

Every collar is different. I use Tritronics mainly but PetSafe Sport Dog is good and so is Dogtra. No collar is the same. They supply the sensation differently and some dogs may react on a low level of Dogtra but not on a tritronics and vice versa. The new SportDog has a very different sensation and I find dogs feeling it and not over reacting at low levels, which I like. A car is not a car, a TV is not a TV, and you get what you pay for.

These are great questions. The most important part of the collar is the introduction and the finding of the lowest levels that the dog can feel. At those levels even if you make a mistake the dog is not going to build a wrong behavior. The worst thing you can do if you do give too high a stim is to bring attention to it. Also remember if you do, for example if he is chasing, I make sure he realizes by me following after him and my body language that he knows it is my creating the discomfort. If you have introduced correctly, used to develop understanding he will know the difference between you and something like a deer that I possibly would not warn against but correct for chasing so the deer becomes the instigator of bad feelings. Generally I find though that by using the collar correctly, training correctly and building in small progressive steps even deer chasing does not happen. The dog becomes at one with you. And if the collar does not get his attention at one stage and the dog goes wrong then do not get upset and blast. Look at the situation as a learning experience and build back up to it in smaller steps controlling at all stages so he does understand and the error does not occur.

[Martindeeley]

Sorry, I did mention that a collar is not a collar any more. SportDog and Innotek are made by the same company. Radio Systems. I prefer the SportDog of the two. Simplest to operate. Range?? Take 60% of what is claimed and then even reduce it for hills and trees etc. If your spaniel is quartering at 200 yards there could be a problem. Within my shooting range - no problem.

Martin

[Martindeeley]

I think this thread is in danger of being hi-jacked , perhaps it would make a good topic elsewhere

Wullie

Sorry Wullie, not sure what you mean. It is being discussed under the correct topic title isnt it? Where is elsewhere??

Writing about such issues however can be confusing. I hope I have not confused. And certainly it is better to see someone who uses it correctly in action and that does not always mean those who think they use it correctly. There are still a lot "Last resort" and light them up trainers out there.

Martin

[trekmoor]

Hi Martin , my post, responding to another post, about correcting in the presence of game was not intended to be taken as an e- collar thing. The pointer people mentioned for example had managed to make their dogs blink game by using much more old fashioned methods ! Not only the e- collar can be mis-used ! So I didn't want to drag this thread off- course. Hope that clears things up.

Wullie

[Snicklefritz]

MartinDeely said:

The most important part of the collar is understanding. It is a message center, it combines with commands even unspoken ones that are there because of an action or situation to help the dog understand what is required. It is not there to blast them every time they do wrong. Get that clear in your minds now and hold it there forever. We use it once the dog understands...

(emphasis mine)

Thank you, Martin, for making that crystal clear. Not suggesting that this was misunderstood...

Chuck

[Martindeeley]

Thanks for the clarification Wullie. It is easy to teach the dog the wrong behavior with any or no tools. You are right. Let us be trainers.

I can remember teaching Ben one of my first spaniels to point very effectively using a long line in a rabbit pen. As you can imagine, I did not mean to, but I was inexperienced, keen, and nervous!! It was good for shooting but not so good for competition. So I had to train it out of him. Keith Erlandson Judged Ben and me one day and put us 3rd. His comment was - great game finder, shame he hesitates on the flush. Took a little work but we got him past the hesitation and he was a great dog.

Martin