delivery issues

[CockerCanuck]

I appreciate your honesty CC .
I knew of these methods but assumed naïvely that it wasn't common in the UK, it seems to me to be a "short cut" or "fast track" method (no offence intended) and it doesn't sit well with me.

Appreciate you don't like it IPS and certainly would not try to talk you into it. Obviously Eze does not need it and it probably would not be good for your relationship with her. However, I think we need to be careful about generalizing what works for one dog and one trainer should therefore be the "proper way" for all.

I don't agree that this is a "short cut". In fact it is long and tedious. I think by far the fastest, easiest and most enjoyable way to train is just encouraging the dogs natural instinct to retrieve like you have with Eze. As I said, this would also be my first choice and how I trained my current two dogs. However, sometimes we are faced with a dog lacking in those instincts or particularly defiant in wanting to do things "their way". Difficult times can call for difficult measures.

[ips]

I appreciate your honesty CC .
I knew of these methods but assumed naïvely that it wasn't common in the UK, it seems to me to be a "short cut" or "fast track" method (no offence intended) and it doesn't sit well with me.

Appreciate you don't like it IPS and certainly would not try to talk you into it. Obviously Eze does not need it and it probably would not be good for your relationship with her. However, I think we need to be careful about generalizing what works for one dog and one trainer should therefore be the "proper way" for all.

I don't agree that this is a "short cut". In fact it is long and tedious. I think by far the fastest, easiest and most enjoyable way to train is just encouraging the dogs natural instinct to retrieve like you have with Eze. As I said, this would also be my first choice and how I trained my current two dogs. However, sometimes we are faced with a dog lacking in those instincts or particularly defiant in wanting to do things "their way". Difficult times can call for difficult measures.

I see your point CC.
I have been fortunate that my only dog to date has not been "too" defiant but there have been occasions were I been very frustrated and could understand completely how easy it would be to get tougher.
I suppose this then begs the question that if a dog is that defiant and none compliant in what is in this case a fundamental aspect of what one expects of the dog then is that dog really worth the effort ???
If a dog that does not do what it has been selectively bred for then is "forcing" it to do a simple task that it should do instinctively going to end up as "hard work" in other areas of training. ???

The above is a valid question not rhetorical

[trekmoor]

I.M.O. the delivery is not part of a dogs "natural instincts" and I would breed from a dog with an iffy delivery if the actual "pick it up and bring it back" instinct was strong. Even if a pup isn't initially very keen on "bringing it back" the instinct to pick it up and carry it about should be enough for any decent trainer to work on.

We should really think twice before insisting on "the natural dog" especially for breeding purposes. The natural dog naturally hunts for it, chases it, catches it, kills it and eats it ! We are really looking for an un-natural dog that centuries of careful breeding has resulted in giving us a dog with rather modified natural instincts !

All in my very humble opinion of course !

Wullie

[ips]

Um, interesting view. Good point

[Nickheref]

I.M.O. the delivery is not part of a dogs "natural instincts" and I would breed from a dog with an iffy delivery if the actual "pick it up and bring it back" instinct was strong. Even if a pup isn't initially very keen on "bringing it back" the instinct to pick it up and carry it about should be enough for any decent trainer to work on.

We should really think twice before insisting on "the natural dog" especially for breeding purposes. The natural dog naturally hunts for it, chases it, catches it, kills it and eats it ! We are really looking for an un-natural dog that centuries of careful breeding has resulted in giving us a dog with rather modified natural instincts !

All in my very humble opinion of course !

Wullie

Agree but the delivery is really only a continuation of the carry so if the dog has a poor delivery my equally humble view is either it has been taught inadvertently to drop it or there is an underlying reason why it cannot stand by it's handler still carrying it. A friend has a lab with a dreadful delivery but everytime I go to the house the dog is carrying something so the carry is ok so to my mind the owner has cocked up the delivery. The reason I get worried if a dog is not confident to deliver to me or walk alongside me carrying the dummy is that I will have done nothing to it that was different to loads of other dogs that were quite happy to do so and therefore if I am conceited enough to think it is not me there must be a reason why the dog doesn't want to, dogs that want to retain the dummy are unlikely to drop it as their reason for not delivering is that they want to keep it and so I believe from experience of the dogs I have had the delivery problems are really a sign that the carry desire is not very strong and if the carry desire is not very strong I suspect that the dog may not be very bothered about really trying to find something it doesn't particularly want to carry in the first place but I accept that some don't like dummies but are fine on game.

[Naj]

I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable to me once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

I do agree with Wullie that dogs might naturally carry stuff but they aren't hard wired to naturally bring the stuff they carry to hand, even though they often do the first time or two. In fact the main reason why these pressure hold techniques are resorted to is because of the handler's failing in making the retrieve to hand an aversive experience. So once again the dog is effectively being punished for the handlers mistakes yet taking the blame for it.

Naj

Just crossposting with Nickh and agreeing with him, in a way, but I'd suggest that what some refer to as possessiveness is simply a learned behaviour inadvertently taught by the handler in effectively punishing the dog for delivering to hand. It's such a common problem because it's common to more traditional methods of teaching retrieving and people aren't moving on to newer, more effective techniques.

[ips]

I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

I do agree with Wullie that dogs might naturally carry stuff but they aren't hard wired to naturally bring the stuff they carry to hand, even though they often do the first time or two. In fact the main reason why these pressure hold techniques are resorted to is because of the handler's failing in making the retrieve to hand an aversive experience. So once again the dog is effectively being punished for the handlers mistakes yet taking the blame for it.

Naj

Just crossposting with Nickh and agreeing with him, in a way, but I'd suggest that what some refer to as possessiveness is simply a learned behaviour inadvertently taught by the handler in effectively punishing the dog for delivering to hand. It's such a common problem because it's common to more traditional methods of teaching retrieving and people aren't moving on to newer, more effective techniques.

If I had a better way with words the above is what I would have liked to have posted

Ps
I cant bring myself to watch the vid that "wasn't pretty" for fear of going off on anther rant.

[Nickheref]

Naj

Just crossposting with Nickh and agreeing with him, in a way, but I'd suggest that what some refer to as possessiveness is simply a learned behaviour inadvertently taught by the handler in effectively punishing the dog for delivering to hand. It's such a common problem because it's common to more traditional methods of teaching retrieving and people aren't moving on to newer, more effective techniques.

Yes there is possessiveness and possessiveness, by it I mean a dog who will body swerve another dog who tries to grab the dummy on it's way in as it is bringing it to me as that is what it really wants and doesn't just drop it or surrender it to the other dog. The one thing possessive dogs tend not to do it drop things.

[ips]

For reasons of research and to ensure that I still feel the same I have just skipped through a couple of similar hold training vids. One was a pointer and to me was handled quite aggressively however the trainer bloke seemed to think that as long as the hand not either forcing the wooden dowl into its mouth or holding the dogs chin up was stroking the dog then it was going to be a lovely experience for both.....

The other was a sposed "modern method" on a spaniel. Trainer bloke went through some old time methods which he doesn't use as he does not use any physical pain, but, he went on to say that he sometimes uses an e collar and does pinch the dogs ear. The dog obviously knew what was coming, I don't know what you call the behaviour but what I saw was a dog attempting to show the bloke some affection as though to try and avoid the impending discomfort.

Both vids the dogs were tied to the ceiling which is Imo worse than the first vid. I fast forwarded through them just to get the idea but I saw and heard enough to satisfy myself that my initial reaction was sound and it does not sit well me one tiny bit.

[Judy]

Would you never tie a dog up, Ips?