Probably over analysing again but....

[chrokeva]

I appreciate that there is probably a huge difference in the way things are done across the pond and i have no clue about dizzied birds or even plantted birds however i very often see a pheasant or partridge sitting tight when dogging in and utilize it for training purposes so that must be a similar scenario to planted birds ?
I have noted that partridge or at least our reared red leg variety dont seem to enjoy flight very much and would much rather walk, they dont seem to take flight very quickly even when they do and as a result are relatively easy to peg. Woodpigeon on the other hand very much enjoy flight and get up very quickly. My one has pegged many a partridge and pheasant but never to the best of my memory a pigeon

If a pigeon sees the dog coming they are likely to get off the ground with absolutely no problem but if the dog makes the find at 20 yards plus and drives that bird at full speed pigeons will have a difficult time whereas a strong pheasant can pull up before the dog has a chance to get hold of them.... at least that is my experience.

[ips]

I appreciate that there is probably a huge difference in the way things are done across the pond and i have no clue about dizzied birds or even plantted birds however i very often see a pheasant or partridge sitting tight when dogging in and utilize it for training purposes so that must be a similar scenario to planted birds ?
I have noted that partridge or at least our reared red leg variety dont seem to enjoy flight very much and would much rather walk, they dont seem to take flight very quickly even when they do and as a result are relatively easy to peg. Woodpigeon on the other hand very much enjoy flight and get up very quickly. My one has pegged many a partridge and pheasant but never to the best of my memory a pigeon

If a pigeon sees the dog coming they are likely to get off the ground with absolutely no problem but if the dog makes the find at 20 yards plus and drives that bird at full speed pigeons will have a difficult time whereas a strong pheasant can pull up before the dog has a chance to get hold of them.... at least that is my experience.

This is very interesting as the oppposite has been my experience, maybe your pheasant are totaly different to our reared birds and perhaps your pigeon are different to our woodpigeon which are very twitchy and very quick both in the air and to take flight

[CockerCanuck]

Chrokeva, I bet the difference is in the way they are planted. One of the things I have come to appreciate about wild barn pigeons is that once you get the feel of it they can be dizzied almost to order for the training scenario you are after. With a lot of dizzy you can "set" them so a puppy will catch them. Later you dizzy so they "almost" catch them and very lightly for an adult dog so they can't. The challenge with lightly done birds is you only have a few minutes to get the dog on them or they will fly off on their own. I can see this would be difficult in a trial unless the bird boys were virtually always in sight just ahead of the dogs. (not very pleasing) I agree they don't do well in woody overhead cover but seem to do fine for me in long grass.

As far as their scent goes they must smell quite different than Galliformes, as Crackered observes, and they do to my poor nose, but my spaniels and retrievers always flushed them with gusto. Perhaps because they were the first live birds they ever encountered. It is funny though they show very little interest in other non-game wild birds, with one exception. I have been fooled many times by a very birdy dog going into a hard flush mode. I have my gun up and finger on the safety only to see them put up a Meadow Lark. I think they must smell a lot like a gamebird. Has anyone else had this experience?

[CockerCanuck]

I was thinking I should have added to the above post that the thing I like best about pigeons is that once in the air they are not coming down. The dog is not going to catch them. I would much rather a dog peg them at the location of the find than flush them, chase them for 30-40 yards and THEN catch them as often happens with poorly conditioned, pen raised gamebirds.

I wish I had enough wild birds to train on but we each have to make the best of what we have.

[trekmoor]

I used to have easy access to lots of loft pigeons. I first used them about 35 years ago with my very first Brittany . That bitch pointed very readily on all the usual gamebirds to be found in Britain but she would not point pigeons. If I dizzied a bird she would, without pointing, move straight in for a peg and a retrieve. If I put a pigeon in a cage she would behave in an even worse manner. She'd go straight to it , jump on top of the cage and then squat and urinate all over the poor pigeon !

She felt it was beneath her dignity to point pigeons especially if they were in a cage. I think pigeons smell very different to the "proper" gamebirds. She also pointed on larks, or at least I think they were larks ? An old lady told me that pointing larks was probably in the blood of some of the pointing breeds because larks used to be hunted and shot over pointers here. According to her , her grandfather had shot larks over his pointers . Maybe larks have only fairly recently been added to list of protected species ? If so it is not surprising that some dogs will still point them …. nobody told the dogs that larks are now a protected species !

Then there is the old saying " larking about." Perhaps this comes from the period in time just after sportsmen were no longer permitted to shoot larks but their dogs still wanted to hunt for them ?

I have had dogs that would readily point woodpigeons even though 20 - 25 yards was as near to them as the dogs ever got without the woodies flying off. I think the reason some dogs do not want to point on pigeons from lofts is that they have human handscent on them. I have often noticed a lack of "intensity" in points if birds, of any kind, have human hand scent on them......the dogs know it is a "set - up" …..it is false.

I do not know if this would be the case if all a pup ever got to point on was dizzied or caged ,planted gamebirds . Maybe pups, knowing no better, would point with great intensity if planted birds was their whole experience but my own pups were always started on truly wild birds without a hint of human scent on them. I think my pups almost had to be retrained to point on planted birds.

Wullie