Gundog Training Forum

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:16 pm How do you hunt over your dog if it doesn't stop to the flush? Are you suggesting taking the dog out and just shooting at flushed game with the dog in pursuit? So it learns that working with the gun = birds?

Because if the dog is not stopping to the flush... and you want it to ... how does taking it out and shooting over it help?

If, as in my case, the dog doesn’t stop, then there is no requirement on my part to shoot to kill. I then, can get after the dog and return it to the flush spot and sit it up. On the next flush, I can size the dog up and if it demonstrates effort then I can make it pay.

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:28 pm

Cass wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:49 pm Once a dog knows it can't catch a bird it's not overly hard to install brakes. You can always add brakes after.... the same cannot be said for the gas pedal.

Um, trouble is on a beating line it actually is possible for dog to catch a bird, birds are regularly pegged against chicken wire fencing, pricked birds can also be pegged, my one had a pricked bird out of a game crop today after she chased it down a field for 100 yds

No doubt. From that video you showed me that seems like shooting up a chicken coop lol

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:09 pm

Cass wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:49 pm Once a dog knows it can't catch a bird it's not overly hard to install brakes. You can always add brakes after.... the same cannot be said for the gas pedal.

You say that, yet the internet is absolutely full of people complaining that they cannot get their dog to stop chasing game, even when it does not catch anything, it continues to chase on every flush.

Internet is full of people that don't train effectively. Not to sound arrogant but it's not my problem. Forums highlight this big time. People get advice but refuse to take it unless it's the answer that they want to hear lol.

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:54 pm

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:34 pm

Springfield Pointers wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:28 pm
Some input is needed from the human. Anticipation is a key to unlocking the puzzle, the other is building a partnership - shooting over your dog is a great way, andca clear path to helping the dig gain some clarity and focus - birds train bird dogs *cough..

A habitual chaser, is totally unaware of the partnership, and will never be, if it continues to self-hunt. The chase in itself is a reward, just leaving a dog to chase in the hope (or belief) that it will miraculously stop with no outside influence, is hoping against hope - the situation requires some management and understanding.

I agree, the dog needs an alternate reward than the chase

Bang on,

Now ... can anyone think of a programme or approach that someone can follow to show the dog that the stop will mean birds to retrieve and chasing means no birds?

Sure can. After the initial couple of times, don't shoot birds that the dog chases. It's dog training... not rocket science.

Cass wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:06 pm

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:54 pm

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:34 pm

I agree, the dog needs an alternate reward than the chase

Bang on,

Now ... can anyone think of a programme or approach that someone can follow to show the dog that the stop will mean birds to retrieve and chasing means no birds?

Sure can. After the initial couple of times, don't shoot birds that the dog chases. It's dog training... not rocket science.

That doesn't make sense, if the dog chases, and views the chase as the reward, then he will continue to chase and you will never shoot the bird... in which case the dog will never learn to stop ...

Or do you mean when you say "after the initial couple of times"... that you first start off shooting every bird flushes, even if the dog is chasing... and then stop shooting birds unless the dog is steady?

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:06 pm

newf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:03 pm

ips wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:34 pm

I agree, the dog needs an alternate reward than the chase

Yes, it should have a reward but those may only equal or be of a lesser value. Competing rewards do not work well on their own, so we have a tool (correction) so the behavior comes out precise and reliable.

Um, not sure i understand.

IPS, as you already know, the dog tells you what is rewarding and what is not. Since we're talking about hunters then scent, chasing or retrieving may be all equal or different valued rewards to individual dogs. So, if one has a problem with a chaser for instance, offering it scent or a retrieve could be always or momentarily less rewarding. In other words, if you give the dog a free choice, he may not reliably pick what you want at any particular time. Thus, moderate use of correction that is consistent and most importantly tied to a unwanted behavior will either inhibit or stop it. Now, you can channel the dog's decision to the next best thing.

I like to keep things simple. On this forum I have learned that may not be possible for everyone. I first train a pup to be crazy to retrieve and then everything else hinges on that. If he does what he is supposed to do he gets a retrieve. If he misbehaves I don't shoot or stop him and go pick the bird/dummy up myself. Pretty straightforward, however I have never trained a dog for beating where they need behave under very challenging conditions without a retrieve and at this stage of my life I am glad I will never have to

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:18 pm

Cass wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:06 pm

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:54 pm

Bang on,

Now ... can anyone think of a programme or approach that someone can follow to show the dog that the stop will mean birds to retrieve and chasing means no birds?

Sure can. After the initial couple of times, don't shoot birds that the dog chases. It's dog training... not rocket science.

Or do you mean when you say "after the initial couple of times"... that you first start off shooting every bird flushes, even if the dog is chasing... and then stop shooting birds unless the dog is steady?

Yes

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:18 pm

Cass wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:06 pm

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:54 pm

Bang on,

Now ... can anyone think of a programme or approach that someone can follow to show the dog that the stop will mean birds to retrieve and chasing means no birds?

Sure can. After the initial couple of times, don't shoot birds that the dog chases. It's dog training... not rocket science.

That doesn't make sense, if the dog chases, and views the chase as the reward, then he will continue to chase and you will never shoot the bird... in which case the dog will never learn to stop ...

Or do you mean when you say "after the initial couple of times"... that you first start off shooting every bird flushes, even if the dog is chasing... and then stop shooting birds unless the dog is steady?

Lloyd. As I stated, obviously some management is required. Nobody (unless I missed something) is advocating that anyone just goes out and shoots everything available that is flushed by a wild and unstarted dog. Some common sense and understanding is a requirement from dog and gun.
There is a big difference between "exposing a dog to game" and "shooting over it". You're assuming that taking a wholly untrained (and uncontrollable) dog out on a hunt will somehow make the the dog into a calm trained hunting companion? That is most certainly not what i meant - there is some shade and light here, and you need to see the context and work up to an end result. Hunting over a dog, most certainly steadies it, but letting it chase, and shooting birds it chases, will guarantee you further problems - some control and common sense, guidance and understanding, is a requirement.

Lloyd90 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:53 pm Now then,that is very different from the perspective often put forward, often its noted "the dog will learn it can't catch the birds and stop chasing" ... and then newbies are sat here itching their heads wondering why they can't get their dog to stop chasing every bloody thing.

You don't shoot "every bloody thing" if your dog is chasing...

Well, the shooting at Sydenham wasn’t great yesterday, but I was delighted with my little dog. She sat rock steady on the peg and had a handful of retrieves all day. No whimpering, stayed focused and worked well.