Gundog Training Forum

Originally posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:40 pm
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This morning along with Gdunc and Ellie I took Charlie to the area I call The Triangle , short for Bermuda Triangle 'cos I couldn't begin to say how often I have lost my dogs in there ! I've even got lost myself more than once.
It is a very large area of undulating ground covered in high rough grasses, thorn bushes, gorse bushes, spike grass clumps, reed clumps, small ponds and forestry strips. It is boken up by many paths , fences and thick very nasty thorn and bramble bush hedgerows. A bit of a jungle in some places.

Game is present but in very small quantities. Even my wide ranging pointing dogs are sometimes hard pressed to find an occasional pheasant and up to present I have only ever found one pair of partridge. The rabbits are there in numbers though and I have steadiness trained my last two H.P.R.'s there.

By the time we arrived there this morning the rabbits had done a night shift and had retreated to their beds. We hunted the cockers on the residual scent. This was more than enough for the dogs to get going on. Ellie needed to be curbed for a little over -enthusiasm a couple of times. Charlie who'd just watched Ellie go , blew a gasket when he got a shot at hunting and tore off 40 yards in front bouncing as high as he could into the air as he went to try to see a bunny over the tops of the groundcover.

I have got to the stage with Charlie where I can wait for his hunting pattern, such as it is, to bring him back towards me then toss a dummy high over my shoulder to land behind me while stopping Charlie at the same time. Instead of an immediate run in he will now sit. When working in that degree of groundcover I then have to send him to find the dummy because I watch him so closely that I have no idea where the dummy lands. Quite probably I would be unable to find it.

I tried this today and forgot Duncan and Ellie were following on behind, I just get too involved in my own dog. I think the falling dummy nearly clunked Duncan on the head - sorry Duncan ! Charlie sat though and waited to be sent for the retrieve so that's the main thing !

We tossed a couple of dummies near the bottom of a little bush then moved 50 yards away from them. The intervening ground was covered in thick spike grass and various other bits of cover. The dogs might easily have been drawn off course by the cover and its' scents. Ellie and then Charlie both made light work of this memory retrieve.

From there we made our way to a little reed fringed pond with a small central island. The dogs did an easy retrieve from just 15 - 20 feet into the pond with no problems . Ellie got a retrieve from just in front of the island and I then tossed a dummy for Charlie to land on the island. It hit the island all right but then bounced and landed in the water on the far side.
I sent Charlie but every water retrieve he's ever had has been on a dummy he could see. It became obvious that he had no idea where this dummy was ! He swam around between me and the island looking for the dummy so I called him back - but he would not come ! He swam back towards the island but again turned off course I tried to call him back but Duncan sent Ellie for the dummy. Charlie again swam outwards and this time went onto the island just ahead of Ellie . He spotted the dummy off the far side and plunged back in and at long last completed this retrieve.

Duncan had taken a photo of the two dogs before they went in the water then took another rather wet and muddy looking one 10 minutes after leaving the pond. Hope they come out O.K. , Duncan was having problems trying to hold Ellie and photo Charlie at the same time so I think he settled for a couple of shots of the terrible two just sitting together.

Wullie

Originally posted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:50 pm
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I took both Charlie and Buck my young G.S.P. out together this morning. Not a good idea I know but my grandson had turned up needing babysat so I at once sneaked off leaving the Soup Dragon to deal with her grandspawn - cunning creatures us men !
Charlie was wanting to follow Buck which is pretty disastrous for a spaniel because Buck points and is therefor allowed or even encouraged to hunt a long way out from me. A roe deer was pointed by Buck. This deer was injured and bleeding badly. The G.S.P. was put on a long rope and allowed to track it. I had to finish off this deer , I think someone has hunted lurchers onto it.

I gave both the dogs a couple of marked retrieves. Charlie ran in on the second one and tried to take the dummy from Buck on one of his retrieves. Charlie is very lucky that Buck is non - aggressive even although he is possessive of his retrieves. Bucks only reaction was to keep away from me and a leashed Charlie with his dummy. I have spent months correcting a retrieve problem with Buck and could see him considering doing a runner with the dummy. I corrected Charlie pretty firmly for this though I was kicking myself too for getting into this position. Charlie is nowhere near steady yet and I'd tempted him just too much.

Much later this morning the grandson got dumped on me to amuse so naturally I took him to "Pets at Home " since I needed more dog food. To a 3 year olds eyes this must be a bit like a trip to the zoo. There were all sorts of cage birds , gerbils, various fish etc. He was fascinated and kept bogging off whenever my attention waned. I lost him for a moment in the huge ,crowded shop. It was really busy and I kept tripping over dogs leads - why do people take their pets into shops ?

I spotted three shop assistants not doing much and asked if they had seen something small and fast moving running about. They instantly woke up and were setting off to hunt when one of them thought to ask me what kind of dog I'd lost. Upon discovering the wee ,fast moving escapee was my grandson they lost interest !

Having apprehended him we continued our look around. One cage had in it a colossal black rabbit with long floppy ears. I spent a moment telling my wide eyed grandson that this was Charlies mommy but after a moments cogitation involving deeply furrowed brows and a forefinger stuck somewhere unmentionable he told me with finality that it was a rabbit and that I was a silly grandad !

Moving on and still looking at the rabbits we came to a sort of stockade made of plastic logs about 4 feet high to stop kids climbing in. My little protege wanted lifted up to see the rabbits hopping around inside. So I did this along with half a dozen other proud mummies and daddies with their variously aged little darlings.

After a moments study I asked him which rabbit he liked best. He pointed to a good sized grey and white bunny. The devil entered my head and took control of my tongue ( this often happens ! ) I said fairly loudly that the rabbit he'd chosen would look great in a stew pot with carrots. A fairly innocuous remark I thought but horrified looks came from everyone else surrounding the rabbit pen. One gentleman of about my own age burst out into snorts of laughter and was dragged off by his wife , everyone else just glared daggers at me and moved off as fast as they could go. My grandson thought it was funny, apart from the gent with the sense of humour he was the only one to laugh.

All those people must teach their kids that meat comes neatly wrapped in polythene ! What a way to bring up kids.

My grandson was duly returned home where he promptly shopped me to his mother and to his granny. We had a good time while it lasted though.

Dunno what all that's got to do with Charlie but I was shopping for him and the other dogs at the time.

Wullie

Originally posted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:02 pm
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I was out with Duncan this morning . He wanted Ellie to get a little work among dead bracken so we went to the area I call the Tussocks. Some parts of this areas boundaries have bracken. Ellie got her hunt but a week or two from now this ground will be impossible to work, the cover was getting high today. I think I'll have to leave that place alone until next winter.

We did several retrieves today. I am still trying to improve Charlies marking. I made a mistake today and had Duncan throw a dummythat was too far for Charlie , maybe 45 yards or so. Charlie saw the dummy but wouldn't go more than about 30 -35 yards - my absolute maximum throwing distance - - - - my mistake !!!

We did a couple of water retrieves. One each from the cover on the opposite bank of the little river and one each from a 2 -3 feet high straight drop piece of banking into the water for a dummy in the water. Both dogs went in off the high bank O.K. but both needed help to get out of the water again.

During the walk that we did a few memory retrieves were left, the dogs dealt with these very well.

I will have to try to stir my stumps and give Charlie a hunt tomorrow, his big pal and kennel mate needs some hunting too - that's not so easy with him , he covers a lot of ground and this is the nesting season, I have to be careful where I let him hunt.

Wullie

Originally posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:41 pm
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This afternoon I went back to the same place I went to with Duncan yesterday. I hunted Charlie along the strip of rough ground with the bracken. I managed to keep him under control and he hunted well never getting too far out. I began practicing the sit to whistle, he often drops flat for this command. He will probably stop doing that with no interference from me once he discovers he can see game better if he sits !

I am now able to sit him to whistle at up to 40 feet if there are no distractions. I only did this distance on the little pathways never as he hunted. When he is hunting I stick to within about 15 -20 feet.

We fell out a little over getting the lead put back on. He has always been a bit awkward about this and I put this down to him being a bit sensitive and maybe a bit uncertain of me as his new owner/trainer. The behaviour has been getting worse instead of better. The more I spoke nicely to him the more he wriggled around flat on his belly or even rolled over onto his back.

Today as I brought the lead out of my pocket he collapsed as usual and wriggled around all over the place on his belly as usual. I held out the loop of the lead and he rolled onto his back - total submission posture ???

Not bloody likely ! I held a cheese treat out on my side of the loop and he popped up through the loop like a jack -in - the - box grabbed the treat and I almost got the feeling he'd said ,"Ta very much !" before he dropped back into belly down pose with tail wagging and a big grin on his physog !!!

Enquiries were made once I reached home. It appears Charlie is very popular among the local kids when my wife has him out. Charlie has discovered that if someone hovers over him , if he rolls onto his back he will often get his tummy rubbed !!! It never occurred to my wife that this might affect anything else. I will now begin to teach him that an outstretched lead with loop open means a treat. I will gradually increase the height I hold the loop at and he won't get a treat until he has put his head through.

We also had a minor disagreement over heelwork - he doesn't think he should do it ! I normally train by the right turn and about turn method. I'd chosen the wrong area to begin training Charlie this , his head was too full of game and hunting for him to concentrate on me. He went into "I'm sensitive." mode and I brought out a bit of cheese . He at once changed channels onto a programme called, "I'm a poor starved wee puppy!" He did right turns and about turns with no leash pressure at all - 'orrible little chancer - it's a good job for him that he amuses me !

I'd taken a tennis ball with me and Charlie proved that he is not in the slightest bit steady to them ! He ran in to both of the marked retrieves, the cover is pretty high and thick but he persevered, hunting hard for the ball for however long it took. His marking was not " to the inch" but he did "hold the area" really well.

I put him on the lead and did two 40 yard memory retrieves with him using the tennis ball. One of these retrieves was from the middle of a big bracken pile among brashing twigs. The ball had plunged right in and so did Charlie, he emerged with the ball and covered in dead bracken fronds and dust.

Next we went to the little river and Charlie went up to the edge of a piece of the bank Duncan and I used yesterday. There is a two to three feet straight down drop to the water there. I hadn't thrown anything but I knew Charlie was hot and thirsty. I pointed at the water and said , "Good boy, get in !" In he jumped off the top of the bank and swam about drinking at the same time. When he'd finished drinking he continued to swim around in circles so I tossed the ball in for him. He brought it back and I helped him out with it still firmly held in his chops even though I'd had to scruff grip him and hold him up like a semi- drowned magicians rabbit. When I put him down and told him he was a good boy he did two very fast victory laps of the little field then arrived back at me looking for more.

I tossed the ball out to the middle of the river and Charlie at once jumped in, grabbed it and got scruffed out again where he promptly did another winners circuit of the stadium.

Our session today was a good one overall and very enjoyable.

Wullie

Originally posted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:14 pm
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I took Charlie back to the Tussocks area this morning. It was raining so hard that not a single rabbit was sitting out. Normally at that time in the morning I would see a rabbit or three but not today. Charlie was hunted down the side of a wood with a pigmesh fence separating it from the rushy field that we were in. This fence is where any flushed rabbit runs for and its presence means I can blow a stop whistle just as he reaches the fence and have a damned good chance of catching Charlie and insisting on a sit ! I normally do my hunting just 20 feet or so from this fence. It forms a sort of cast limiter on one side of me. The fence runs almost directly east/west and the prevailing winds here are west to east or vice versa. It is usually possible to hunt a dog into the wind. The cover is rough grass and spike grass clumps.

Charlie couldn't have cared less about the rain which was fairly sluicing down. He made a really good job of pushing right through or even under the big clumps. He must have been aware all the rabbits were sheltering down in their burrows - but there were still voles to hunt ! I would hardly have believed it was possible for a dog to completely disappear just 6 feet from me in a grass field but Charlie managed this several times, he really does get right under grass of any length. He comes out looking like a cross between a mole and a haystack.

His hunt went pretty well and I put in a few sits to whistle but had to enforce a couple of them. He crept on one and tried to remain stopped but standing on the other. This was at 12 to 15 feet from me.

A few retrieves were next and again I hadn't brought dummies with me just tennis balls. He insists in running in for these, they seem to tempt him more than dummies do. I sat him 4 or 5 feet from me , gave him my best ferocious scowl , repeated the sit command and he sat for about 2 -3 seconds then ran-in ........ business as usual !

I had badly distracted him as the ball was in the air and I'd been too busy staring at him and threatening dire retribution if he budged to watch it myself -- this ball really was lost among a sea of spike grass. No matter how hard he tried he could not find that ball and neither could I. A second ball was sneaked down the side of my leg to give him a reward for his efforts and then we went home with the rain still pouring down. We were both soaked. I'll need to wait for better weather to arrive to get another tennis ball. There's not much sense in lurking about near the local tennis courts hoping for out of bounds balls to be hit if the weather isn't getting the tennis playing set out onto the courts.

My old G.S.P. is brilliant at that game , none of the tennis players have managed to catch her yet ! That's how we Scottish gundog trainers go shopping for tennis balls

Wullie

Originally posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:44 pm
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This morning I had a very hectic training session with Charlie. I'd left the house later than usual to be certain that the rabbits would not still be up and about. This did not work too well. They were still above ground, hiding in thick cover and under the gorse bushes. Charlie had a whale of a time in and under there and there wasn't much that I could do about it !

He even found a big cock pheasant who owns this territory. It got ejected from thick gorse with that little b*""^r snapping at its' tail feathers !

I moved away from this area to where I hoped to control him better and he promptly jumped a broken fence section and ran into a wood full of rabbit holes. I could not catch him in there so I watched and waited outside. Out flew a pair of partridge , I have never before seen partridge come from right inside a wood. These were grey partridge and I'd love to know what they were doing in there - maybe dusting at an ant nest ?
Charlie was tanking along right underneath them , he was completely gone man - solid gone !!!

Partridge, pheasant and rabbits all in one short space of time had deep fried his brain cell --- I caught him about 70 yards out and still going. I leashed him and headed for home.

Wullie

Originally posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:36 pm
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Charlie is sensitive - but not near game he's not ! I am going to have to step up the obedience training, doing it in specialised sessions rather than working a sort of "pay as you go" hunting session as I prefer! Not my favoured way of doing things but Father Time has caught up with my legs, heart and other bits ! Where are the nearest obedience classes !

More seriously, I really will have to settle down and begin some serious obedience sessions away from any game scents. The local public park is due a visit. About the only wildlife he'll find in those bushes is courting couples !
I have to admit to enjoying watching him "go" so much that I have neglected to properly teach the stops and steering !

Wullie

Originally posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:13 am
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I became so fascinated watching the little devil "go" that I did a Nelson to the minor details like stop and steering !

Instead of taking Charlie out this morning I took out my young G.S.P. instead. It was early morning and the bunnies were out parading in regiments !!! It was like having a rest cure working the G.S.P. he must have seen and scented dozens , some at very close range to him. There was not the slightest attempt at a chase from him even when he was 50 yards from me as a rabbit ran from him.

It is so-o-o-o-o-o much easier to train a dog that will point not to chase !!!

Wullie

Originally posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:40 pm
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I'm just back from a training session up The Law with Charlie. I'd wanted to go earlier but it was just too hot. It must be the hottest day so far this year in my area.

I let him go along a woodland path bordered by a very deep,wide ditch along one side. I was throwing dummies 20 yards past this into the woodland groundcover of felled trees, fallen branches etc. He ran in on all 3 dummies I tried. In the open again on a grass pathway through a field of rough grass I hunted him for 100 yds or so. The "fire" wasn't there but the control was much easier. I did have to follow up the stop whistle with a vocal command and a hand signal more than once but he did stop every time - there was nothing there to interest him.

I did a bit of steadiness to thrown dummies training and after a shaky start - he ran in ! - I began to get on top of the situation . By the end of this mini-session about 3-5 minutes later he was staying put to the two dummies and the tennis ball I was chucking about. He was steady but his marking suffered badly. I sent him for a couple of the dummies just 10 -15 yards away in the rough grass and he was all over the shop ! Swings and roundabouts I suppose !

I let him see me throw two dummies over some very rough vergeside cover and over a broken down drystane dyke into the cover at the edge of a fir wood. He was taken about 70 yards from the fall area, lined up and sent back. He went over some very rough ground at top speed , went over the wall and hunted till he found one of the dummies then came flying back just as fast as he could go.

I was hoping to avoid his usual side slip technique at this stage so I made my self as "open" and non threatening as I could without actually kneeling down. I did as I do with my big G.S.P. and patted the front of my thigh with my open palm outwards as a target area . This works well with the big lad and he usually puts the dummy right into the target area - my hand.

Charlie would be rotten at target shooting . He came back at maximum speed , saw the target and jumped at it from 5 feet away. He missed the target by just inches but still got a coconut - it hurt quite a bit !!!

I hobbled bravely homewards - at least he seemed pleased with himself !

P.S. I forgot the 2nd dummy, think I was too busy gurgling and gasping !

I told my wife to look for it when she takes our old girl out tomorrow. Strange woman - I could have sworn I saw her grinning !

Wullie

Originally posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:32 pm
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I have been doing little bits and pieces with Charlie for the last few days. His retrieving has been going really well - but with two main problems. If I try hard I can keep him steady unless I do a hard or full strength overhead throw. He just cannot resist that kind of throw and always runs in. An underarm throw I can keep him steady for aind using these I now can put out two dummies, one to either side of him as he sits and send him for the one I designate.
The other problem is that when I manage to keep him steady he loses his mark on the newly thrown dummy.

He does still, fairly often sideslip me on returning with a dummy, this is getting a bit better though and I now sometimes require him to sit to deliver mainly to control his ecstatic wriggling around me than for any other reason.

I have begun to do a little obedience work with him. This has enabled me to advance his directional training a little further. I can now let him see a dummy thrown while he is on leash then walk him 50 yards away from it still on leash. I can then sit him and carefully remove the leash and leave him sitting there until I am perhaps 10 yards away from him. Using a sort of exaggerated "Heil Hitler!" type arm signal I can now send him back for that dummy.

He has now done some very good memory and shorter seek back retrieves in some pretty tough places. Two evenings ago he did a memory up a very steep woodland bank . The distance was only about 40 -50 yards but the ground cover made this a difficult retrieve for a hunt daft wee spaniel ! Ferns are beginning to unfurl every where and the ground was littered by fallen trees and by fallen branches. I would have hated this as a blind retrieve in a trial ! Charlie made it look easy and after giving me the dummy, went for a victory circuit of the surrounding upright and fallen trees , whizzing about over , under , along and around them ! I couldn't help it, his youthful high spirits got to me and I forgot about discipline and burst out laughing.

I have been trying to gain control as he hunts and wasn't doing too badly at keeping him within about 20 feet. Yesterday I once more took him to a place where game has not been seen since Methusala was a pup. Things went pretty well and problems were few as he hunted. I kept him away from a huge gorse bush covered area not because I was worried about game being in there but because his pattern, such as it is, would have been ruined by that cover.

Very near to the end of the field he swung around and poked up a big pheasant from under an outlying gorse bush. Charlie jumped back in astonishment and then at once tore off after it. The pheasant flew over the top of the gorse - maybe 50 yards - - - Charlie went straight through it all and out the other side in hot pursuit. Back to square one - it's like playing snakes and ladders trying to train him.
That is the first time in 6 years that I have ever found anything in that field.

Wullie