Gundog Training Forum

kelco,

if the parents are sound in temprement and have high drive in cover then go ahead & try the mating,you will either get hard hunting stuff like the parents or else they will be useless and soft as shit,there is no middle ground when you breed this way.just make sure you know the full history of the dogs & bitches in the first 2 generations of the bitches pedigree that you are going to double up on,if there is any softness in this then forget it as this will multiply.gilpin and windmillwood shot were both great dogs and fairly potent stud dogs.both sire and dam would want to be big dogs as breeding half brother/sister often results in size reduction

the bridevalley/sprucehill lines were the hardest spaniels that ever stood in ireland and were very sucessful in trials in the late 70's and right through the 80's,they were all closely bred and heavily line bred with often 4 lines of the great foundation/broodbitch lismore belle in the first 4 generations.what made the grade were hunting on the verge of being suicidal,obviously there were plenty bad ones too like there are in every line. that time there was no mate select the only way to breed, was to breed hard to hard,if it worked it worked if not you just cut your losses and moved on.

What would you do if the pups were "useless and soft as shit"? How would (or could) you "cut your losses and move on"? Personally, I would breed the bitch to an unrelated (low COI!) dog of the type that you wish for, then think later of possibly breeding a pup back to its half-uncle.

well if there "useless and soft as shit" in my opinion, it would then become a well disciplined pet dog, not that you see them often.

i agree though, with the little breeding knowledge i have from reading about it,i would breed with an outcross from the bitch, and then back to the sire of the bitch. thats if the sire was a good dog. that is going to be hopefully the plan of mine, if my bitch turns out half decent, and worth breeding from at all.

[quote][that time there was no mate select the only way to breed, was to breed hard to hard,if it worked it worked if not you just cut your losses and moved on./quote]

It's this that worries me a bit with any breeding with a narrow goal in mind....what happens to the chaff that is generated in getting your wheat? Culling was literally that many years ago, dogs were little more than tools. I should hope we have come on a long way from that. It's not a problem limited to in-bred dogs either; good homes must be found for all 'rejects'. Perhaps the 'soft as shit' dogs would get the easiest of it...moved into a nice gun-pet home. What if you made pups too manic even for trialling?!

I would assume now that everyone will be advertising their pups as low coi, it will be in every advert. but look at it another way !!!!! the last ten championship winners for arguments sake, not the maniac trial dogs as some of the forum experts describe them as but usually the hardest going most consistent finishers, a balance between a plug and an unpolished dog is how i would descibe them. the average coi is around 17 % so if you are going to use the mateselect and aim for below 9% the stats say u wont breed anything worthwhile. i think it would be a good idea to use it just to check your doing things correctly the average i would be looking for is the average of proven good dogs.

youngbuck wrote:I would assume now that everyone will be advertising their pups as low coi, it will be in every advert. but look at it another way !!!!! the last ten championship winners for arguments sake, not the maniac trial dogs as some of the forum experts describe them as but usually the hardest going most consistent finishers, a balance between a plug and an unpolished dog is how i would descibe them. the average coi is around 17 % so if you are going to use the mateselect and aim for below 9% the stats say u wont breed anything worthwhile. i think it would be a good idea to use it just to check your doing things correctly the average i would be looking for is the average of proven good dogs.

I ran both top spaniels and labs through it, and both came above the "breed average". If nothing else it actualy proves that you need a strong line in the dog to keep those traits we look for.

youngbuck wrote: the average coi is around 17 % so if you are going to use the mateselect and aim for below 9% the stats say u wont breed anything worthwhile. i think it would be a good idea to use it just to check your doing things correctly the average i would be looking for is the average of proven good dogs.

the coi has no relevance on performance only a guide to try and maintain health


edited to add.

current top lab Delfleet Neon of Fendawood coi 6.6 very close to breed ave
springers - previous champ buccleuch jazz 8.5% (below breed ave.)
Flaxdale Hallie 15.7% nearly double breed ave!

you name me one unhealthy championship winner

i was refering to the cocker championship winners

youngbuck wrote:you name me one unhealthy championship winner

i was refering to the cocker championship winners

you were stating all the latest champions ave 17% coi's. you never said cockers only. cockers have a a challenge to maintain healthy genetic diversity going forward.

If youve read anything posted on this lately youll surely have realised the COI is about planning breeding and keeping an eye on genetic diversity to protect future breed health..unless that doesnt matter. i.e. if you have a dog with a higher COI outcross then if it suits line breed...nothings changed there, except you now have the information to be able to more easily be accurate in your planning...

Can I ask what COI means please