EssGrouse wrote:I personally haven't experienced it Naj and i don't want it to happen to me, but i have watched a few experienced trainer's using positive methods have pups close down on them.
Pups have closed down on them using positive methods ? Why ? Do you mean that positive methods don't prepare a trial prospect adequately because of the pressure that is inherent in the game ? Not being facetious or critical.
Naj wrote:Wasn't recommending that you switch to positive/force-free methods & I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone has used them in producing a championship winner. You were complaining earlier that you had a problem with some pups in that 'when you start to turn the screws it shuts down or takes a while to recover', so was just suggesting that if you moderated your methods to suit the dog in front of you then this wouldn't happen.
Naj
But that's not true Naj, it can just be in the dogs nature not to recover quick from set backs, or to shy away or close down. I dont belive you can untrain this mentality so to speak. Its instinct for most if you get me.
James wrote:Wrong way of looking at it totally, it doesn't matter what the dog looks like or even how it goes. All that matters is what it produces, you want a proven sire so that makes life easier, you're not getting the dog after all just just what it produces.
Completely agree, Breeding is all about the produce. The dog itself only matters if you're chancing using an unproven sire - then you need to look at all the siblings/related produce you can.
EssGrouse wrote:I personally haven't experienced it Naj and i don't want it to happen to me, but i have watched a few experienced trainer's using positive methods have pups close down on them.
Pups have closed down on them using positive methods ? Why ? Do you mean that positive methods don't prepare a trial prospect adequately because of the pressure that is inherent in the game ? Not being facetious or critical.
No I mean positive methods where used and the pups still shut down.....don't try and put words into my mouth so to speak.
Take it how you want, i know what I meant...you clearly dont and i cba elaborating!!
So look at where this softness has come from, a few certain dogs come to mind and these top breeders always wanted easier softer dogs to train, they got them now they cant cope with them. Can't have it booth ways surely! And surely again its this constant use of these sires which has caused this issue!
Just how I view it in my small world
Anyway, good luck in your search
EssGrouse wrote:I personally haven't experienced it Naj and i don't want it to happen to me, but i have watched a few experienced trainer's using positive methods have pups close down on them.
Pups have closed down on them using positive methods ? Why ? Do you mean that positive methods don't prepare a trial prospect adequately because of the pressure that is inherent in the game ? Not being facetious or critical.
No I mean positive methods where used and the pups still shut down.....don't try and put words into my mouth so to speak.
Take it how you want, i know what I meant...you clearly dont and i cba elaborating!!
I asked a question. Wanted to know what you have experienced. And, I did say, I was not being facetious or critical.
You can do all your research, and I'm not saying you shouldn't, far from it, and find a stud dog that most nearly fits your requirements (you'll never find the perfect dog, it doesn't exist) and still find the pups are not what you expected. Until the pups arrive you won't know which, the dog or the bitch, has the dominant genes for the attributes you don't want to see.
I have yet to see a pup shut down when trained properly but I have managed to shut down my dogs when I have lost my temper with them... In my experience biddable, easily and quickly trained dogs mostly tend to be the softer ones, treated right they can be as quick and confident as the bull-headed nut cases.
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Naj wrote:Wasn't recommending that you switch to positive/force-free methods & I'd be pleasantly surprised if anyone has used them in producing a championship winner. You were complaining earlier that you had a problem with some pups in that 'when you start to turn the screws it shuts down or takes a while to recover', so was just suggesting that if you moderated your methods to suit the dog in front of you then this wouldn't happen.
Naj
But that's not true Naj, it can just be in the dogs nature not to recover quick from set backs, or to shy away or close down. I dont belive you can untrain this mentality so to speak. Its instinct for most if you get me.
If breeders are producing pups with flawed temperaments then that's clearly wrong. But with a normal pup, whether a hard or soft temperament, 'shying away' & 'closing down' are learnt behaviours directly attributable to the way in which they have been handled.
