getting cocker to give to hand

[Miesque]

In my lifetime, I've only trained four dogs through FF. They were good reliable gundogs for duck hunting. However, my present lab who is now three was trained by playing tug. The reason I decided to go that route was because he didn't show much interest in retrieving unlike the past dogs. Therefore I wanted to keep it fun and nuture the desire. A limp piece of firehose with encouragement to grab and hold with the reinforcement of light tugging on my part led to 'leave it' and; eventually, coupled with a very short toss in the kitchen to the retrieve. Later, he was encouraged to just pick up a few odd things like a sock, a toy or even trade his chew for a nice treat. Today, he will pick up most anything he can handle if asked because he has associated it with something good. I would also think that his basic ob has been thorough enough to have backed up the command fetch indirectly so no need of an ear pinch.

Expanding on that, in early training, he routinely carried dummies by their ropes and would return with them swinging to and fro. Then too, on retrieving tennis balls he sometimes gave them a squeeze and a roll as he presented them to me. With time and I suppose the factors of maturity and convenience changed his dummy carrying behaviour to what I desired...by the center. However, his ball squeeze is still present but not to the same degree. Still, the sometimes controversial tug play and tennis ball are part of his training and has not caused any issues with the application of real birds alive or dead.

Interesting because a few lurcher people believe in Tug training. Its always been a big NO in gundogs but your experience shows otherwise. I think understanding the reasons for hard mouth are not yet sorted or even if we ever will understand them 100%

We use tug training with the lurchers, it gets them interested in an inanimate object - as sight hounds they don't always see a dummy as something of interest! Mine has a soft mouth BUT if he does not immediately bring the retrieve to hand (working more than one dog) he likes to hide his retrieves....he knows where they are and can be resent for them, he doesn't do it with game juts dummies.

[newf]

newf, that's interesting. Game of tug is hugely popular in the obedience world and one day I hope dog trainers will prove it can be useful in gundog training (as you did).

Yes, if anything I felt empowered after introducing tug because it was a game of control and not a free for all act of aggression. Playing and teaching is up close and not a hundred yards away from you. Having the dog grab, hold, tug and release during mild excitement is the essence of ob but disguised in play. When the rules are understood well by the dog all the other gifts of ob can be gradually worked into the game of control like heel, down, sit/stay, etc. all contigent on listening to the handler or else the game ends.

I have seen a compulsive retriever created from a non retrieving cocker with use of edible treats and it didn't spit its retrieves one bit, just shows what we know for sure is never really sure

I think bad timing or luring is at fault when a dog spits because the behaviour of present and hold is what is paid not the premature drop. I believe the only thing wrong in training is timing, not the method.

We use tug training with the lurchers, it gets them interested in an inanimate object - as sight hounds they don't always see a dummy as something of interest! Mine has a soft mouth BUT if he does not immediately bring the retrieve to hand (working more than one dog) he likes to hide his retrieves....he knows where they are and can be resent for them, he doesn't do it with game juts dummies.

Interesting that he wants to hide the dummy but not the more precious game. As in the other present thread dealing with 'fun bumpers' it's just more evidence that dogs' are very situational and can deal with contradictions in training probably better than we do.

[ips]

Interesting stuff newf.