Gundog Training Forum

Originally posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:15 am
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Hi Judy, that field is one I quite often use but always in the early morning. My G.S.P. has often been interested along its boundary fence. Three times in total I have let him jump the fence into the forestry. He has gone in and put up what I think is this same cock pheasant.

When Charlie found it the bird was in the field . I think it probably feeds out there as the day goes on. The timing of my visit was I think the main reason for finding this bird where it was. It was a damn pest anyway , Charlie chased it a long way.

I was out deliberately looking for rabbits early this morning with my G.S.P. and a cocker spaniel bitch belonging to a lady I'm trying to help. We got there just a bit too late, early morning dog walkers were already out there and had chased off the rabbits. I let my big G.S.P. youngster have a hunt and he found and was steady to a big dog fox ! The fox was terrified and ran like stink but it needn't have worried . The G.S.P. is one of the gentlest dogs you'd ever meet, there isn't an ounce of aggression in him. He is very likely to injure you by banging into you or similar but that's because he is a boisterous big twit ! I often call him Goofie !!!

Up to present he has managed to run into me so hard as I was siiting in some long grass that he knocked me out cold. He has also damaged one of my kneecaps while doing an ultra fast dummy delivery ! He's just one of those dogs !

This morning the spaniel worked pretty well but was slow to sit and inclined to meander on for 6 to 8 feet after the stop whistle was blown . I advised the lady on what to do about this - - - this is ever so easily accomplished when it isn't your own dog doing things wrong !

I saw a fair number of rabbits, the lady saw a fair number of rabbits,even my G.S.P. saw rabbits but the spaniel didn't. She is just too small to see them run over the tops of the ever growing cover. We had the bitch on a check cord but it wasn't needed, she will chase or so I'm told but she doesn't hunt like Charlie , she isn't as fast, she isn't quite as headstrong and she is more controllable.

I hope to take Charlie out later but for the moment I'm going back to my bed I'm knackered.

Wullie

Originally posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:14 pm
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I'm just back from taking Charlie out on to as near as possible gameless ground. In 6 years of going there I have seen more deer than rabbits and no winged game at all. For once he didn't manage to turn up a wild card ! I had a chase free training session.

He is now much more confident around other dogs and people. He will instigate contact and play with any dog , any shape, any size that he meets. He is also now running up to total strangers and asking to be petted - this is a hell of a change from a month ago. Strangely there are some people - always adults - that he just does not like. There is another gundog guy living fairly near me. He has labs and spaniels and seems a nice enough bloke to me. Charlie won't go near him !

This was a cause for some hilarity when 5 of us gundoggy types met for a blether a few days ago. The more the man tried to be nice to Charlie the less Charlie liked him! The other guys weren't slow to notice this and comments like ," Clever dog that - I've never liked the b*$^**d either !" or , " Jeez, you must really stink if even a dog stays away from you !" were bandied about. The man kept trying to coax Charlie but he was having none of it. I think that's what was wrong, Charlie doesn't like feeling pressurised.

Charlie had done a good short distance but heavy cover retrieve then the same again but as a memory at longer range when a young lady with a work bred lab came along. I had just dropped a seek back for Charlie and wasn't awfully pleased when Charlie and the bitch went off to play chasey but that's what you get in public parks!

The lady and I continued along the path together for almost a hundred yards before I remembered the dummy lying in pretty thick cover way back there ! I got Charlie back, lined him up and sent him. He sped back along the pathway stopped dead just 10 feet short of the dummy then charged all the way back again. The lab lady was warbling away in my earhole and I wasn't fully concentrating on Charlie. When he had ran back to about 30 or so yards of me, I forgot which dog I was working on and blew the stop whistle forgetting just for that second that Charlie doesn't stop to whistle at 30 feet never mind 30 yards !!!

To my semi - amused astonishment the blurry little chancer stopped and sat dead in his tracks - it was an instant sit ! I've been ever so, ever so nice to him about sits to whistle, extending his sit range a foot at a time, making every effort not to offend his sensitive little soul ! The little b*^^*r has known exactly what was required for some time ! He just hasn't much wanted to do it and gave me the "be gentle with me, I'm ultra sensitive " eyes and semi cowed looking crouch. I am of course mug enough to fall for it - I'm not used to cockers !

At this stage I decided on an in for a penny in for a pound approach to this retrieve and threw the nice gradual approach to arm signals I normally take out of the window. I just treated him as a fully trained dog and as he sat facing me 30 yards away, flung my arm into the air in an exaggagerated "Heil Hitler !" style salute and commanded " Out !" and out he went all the way this time , hunted through the cover when I shouted "There!" then came galloping back with the dummy and threw himself into my arms ! This time I caught him in mid air to avoid him slamming into my unmentionables again.

A very interesting retrieve and one that tells a little story about how much this little devil really understands ! He never fails to surprise me. Are all cockers like that ???

Wullie

Originally posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:52 pm
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Wummin always deal in negative vibes My superbly constructed dog box was only about one and a bit inches too tall to go into the car. A minor detail , it is now sorted and is in place. My dear lady wife says it looks like Alcatraz for dogs but she's just a wummin , I never listen to them !

Charlie has had a good day. I did a short hunt and long seek back retrieve with him this morning. He did well at both then decided he'd been good for long enough and began to ignore me when I tried to keep him in within 20-30 feet of me so I stopped at that and headed home. One thing I did notice. I deliberately tried sitting him to whistle during the seek back at 30 yards from me - he stopped and with a hand signal he sat. He does know what the noise means but does not always think he should respond to it.

This afternoon was hot so I took Charlie to a small quiet stream. I gave him two retrieves from the 2 feet high bank into the water. I let him run in - he would have anyway ! I had to lift him out by the scruff 'cos he couldn't climb out with or without the dummy. He looked like something the cat had dragged in as I held him up by the scruff and he held his dummy but he was happy enough. It may not have been a classic delivery but it was an effective one !

He got one short ,40 yards, memory retrieve tossed into long thick grass. He struggled a bit to find this in the dense grass but he did find it and did a fair but not perfect delivery with it.

He won't be out with me tomorrow, I'm away at H.P.R. training classes. My wife will be taking Charlie out - poor little sod

Wullie

Originally posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:35 pm
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I am totally knackered, after the H.P.R. classes today I felt I could hardly move another inch. Charlie had other ideas, he wanted out for his training fix this evening so I pushed my complaining bones out of the chair and off we went.

I hunted through a rough field with him , not brilliant stuff, he wasn't going his hardest , there appeared to be no game scent at all around. His sits to whistle were O.K. at close range. I began to throw a dummy from time to time and insisted that he stopped to it. The dummy was thrown to one side of me as he hunted towards me from the other side. He managed to complete one run in by veering around behind me before I could turn. I was able to leave him at the sit and pick the dummy myself but twice I could not find it in the high grass and had to send Charlie after all. I also did several marked retrieves and a seek back . He didn't mark too well but he did find all of the retrieves and I was very pleased to note that he came straight back into me every time tonight - no veering off at all.

We arrived at a little path that borders the field and met a guy with two springers , unknown to me he'd been watching our performance. He was a good bit younger than me but so is most of the worlds population so I didn't hold that against him. He struck up a conversation with me, I can't do the local accent very well but it went something like this. " He's comin oan no bad the wee felly then ?" A compliment is always nice to receive so I said " Thanks ." and made to move on but this local worthy wasn't finished. "See when they winnae hup their arses ," says he wisely, " ye should up'n throw yer F'in stick at thum !!!" I thanked him profusely for his words of wisdom , he accepted my thanks as being no more than his due and added as I moved off, " If yese need any mair help gimme a shout , ah'll gie yese ma phone number. "

I "lost" the number on the way home - wouldn't like to be one of that lads spaniels !!!

Wullie

Originally posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:57 am
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All that dog whisperer stuff on the T.V. makes me cringe as does the words of the commentators who desctibe these people as "experts." I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be called an "expert!" The implication is that you have nothing left to learn. If I ever reached that exalted but sorry state I would be so bored by it all I'd be be ready to pop my clogs !!!

I think I already described in an earlier post my meeting with a lady in a local park who had passed some college test or exam on dogs and wanted to set up a business as a dog trainer in this area. I was pretty impressed by her credentials until I discovered that she could not let her own dog, a perfectly nice German Wirehair bitch , off lead in the park ! She told me herself it would not come back !!! She'd had this bitch from a puppy and it had various obedience type awards and wins but the would be professional dog trainer could not transfer the lessons taught in an obedience hall to the great outdoors.

At that time I was looking for someone to teach me clicker training - I'd at first thought this lady who was a self confessed expert could be my guru but when she could not release her dog to play with my rascals I decided she wasn't getting any of my money and that she had a damned cheek taking anyones money for her "expert" services !

That's twice now I 've ranted on about her - must be getting old

Wullie

Originally posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:58 pm
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..After yesterdays double dog training sessions I felt like I could hardly move today but Charlie and his big G.S.P. pal felt just fine so I had to take them out. I took both together to the local wildlife park which is a contradiction in terms 'cos it has no wildlife apart from lager louts and courting couples and their attendant twitchers !

I went along a woodland track and chucked a couple of dummies well into the wood on one side. My plan was to send Charlie out first giving him an easier find then to send out the G.S.P. for the more difficult 2nd dummy.

Into view on the same pathway as me came a man a woman a pram and a dog. It was the dog I recognised first , Belle the 'orrible Brittany ,still owned by me but dognapped by my son and his wife to be a nice sized house pet nearly a year and a half ago. It was my son, his wife and my grand daughter - but I recognised the dog first ! I really must get specs !

During the subsequent greeting ceremonies my G.S.P. who is retrieve daft sneaked off and came back with one of the dummies I'd tossed. I waited no longer but lined Charlie up and sent him . He remembered very well and tore off along the track then into the wood but Belle the 'orrible decided to follow him . Charlie found the dummy and started back but got mugged by Belle who is bigger than him , meanwhile my G.S.P. had decided he could do it all much better and he'd ran in !!! I did nothing for fear of frightening Charlie , Belle the 'orrible now got a dose of her own medicine 'cos the big lad mugged her in turn and made a triumphant return with the dummy. That is not what I call good dog training but what can you do with families ? Everyone other than me was muchly amused -- I left the scene to continue on my way muttering something about sassafrassin , bassafrassin Brittanies ! They are the nearest breed I know of to cocker spaniels - utterly infuriating yet terrific little dogs !

Following this total muck up I decided to do some serious steadiness to dummy training. I went onto short grass and sat the two dogs a few feet apart. Wee Charlie studied me intently this was new territory to him. He did very well really for I have hardly begun to teach him to stay in one spot. The G.S.P. is steady but is ever watchful for a chance at the dummy when another dog is nearby, he thinks every dummy ever thrown should be either his or mine with no middle men such as wee cocker spaniels. With a dog with a different temperament I would not have done any of this but Buck the G.S.P. is a very friendly dog. Him and Charlie are good friends and are forever playing together. Buck might try to steal the. dummy from Charlie but he would not harm him in any way.
Charlie will steal any dummy available so I had my hands full !

I tossed dummies around trying always to keep my body between Charlie and the dummy. I split things fairly equally picking some of the dummies myself and sending either Buck or Charlie by name to get the others. Charlie tried twice to run in on Bucks dummy as soon as he saw my arm signal. He got no reward for this 'cos a big fit G.S.P. dog is faster than a wee cocker ! Buck got the dummy first and held it well out of Charlies reach as he came back to me. I did notice though that this worried Buck a bit for he "rolled" the dummies in his mouth . Charlie got plonked back into his place.

By the end of a short session both dogs were behaving well remaining at the sit while the other retrieved.

I'm not kidding myself that either Charlie or Buck is now steady but it was a good start to what will be needed when I eventually take them out picking up together.

I tried a longish double seek -back into the fringes of a wood 60 yards away. Charlie got the first dummy easily despite not having seen it tossed but the second one caused him problems . He hunted hard but came out of the wood without it twice. Both times I whistle sat him at 30 yards or more from me and commanded him "Out !" again. He responded perfectly and charged back into the wood, after the 2nd time I walked back towards the wood to help him but he didn't need it ,he came hurtling back out of the wood again this time with the dummy. This time he did his only body swerve of the training session on me but I at once spoke sharply to him and he came right in for his usual cuddle/present !

I headed back towards my car letting Charlie chunter on 30 -40 feet ahead while I walked Buck ay heel free down the path. This is good practice for Buck, I find training heelwork boring and have a very bad habit of neglecting it . Buck very much wanted to move on ahead with Charlie but he stayed pretty well at heel with very few extra commands.

My attention was still on Buck . Charlie has been with me for over a month now and he has come on in leaps and bounds in his confidence in meeting other dogs and other people. A month ago what happened next would not have occurred , Charlie would never have done it .

Charlie spotted two dogs and ran near them inviting a game, the two dogs were track greyhounds. Charlies sudden appearance caught their walker by surprise and the leads got torn from his grasp. The two dogs rushed Charlie and he took fright and ran back towards me. The greyhounds easily overtook him and bowled him over he yelped in fright and by this time I was hurrying towards the scene. Something else was hurrying too - I think Buck thought he was missing out on a game but whatever he thought he charged in and knocked over one of the greyhounds. The other dog broke off from Charlie who lost no time in deserting his big pal and hurrying back to me leaving Buck standing looking very statuesque and utterly confident between the two dogs. The one he'd knocked over was out of it - I know what it feels like to be bumped by Buck.At this point I realised there was no real problem for both the greyhounds were muzzled ! Their owner hurried up to reassure me about that and was apologetic. Apart from being bowled over and kept down until Buck arrived by the two dogs Charlie seems unharmed. Those dogs seemed to mean business though...... I have a feeling it was very fortunate that they were both muzzled.

It is a public park and the man and his greyhounds have as much right there as me and my two rogues. I should have kept a closer eye on Charlie and the greyhound man should have kept a tighter grip on the leads.
It is when things like that happen that I realise just how gently Buck is playing with Charlie - he really is pulling his punches ! Buck once accidentally Knocked me out cold by barging into me as I was sitting hidden from him in tall grass. He also once accidentally banged against my knee cap doing an overly enthusiastic return . That was about 9 months ago and my kneecap still throbs - I now need a plastic one ! He is even bigger and heavier and faster now - I would not like to feel like that greyhound does right now !!!

Wullie

Originally posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:14 am
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I was out this afternoon (yesterday now! ) with Charlie. It was an area with no game scent at all and Charlie was bored by it. HE did hunt but he lacked his usual flamboyance and was just a bit too easily controlled for my liking . I stopped after only a moment and practiced whistle stops , steadiness and retrieving instead. At these he shone, I was very pleased with him . Twice he tried to body swerve me with the dummy but was easily persuaded to come right in.

I now have him stopping when a dummy is thrown. As yet I am throwing the dummies off to one side in order to have a chance of "cutting him off at the pass." Maybe it was just the mood he was in but he didn't try to run in even once today. I would have thought he was ill but when he was allowed to retrieve he went like a wee black bat out of hell !

I tried putting out a memory then walking him on leash away from it by as much as 70 -80 yards then sitting him and continuing to walk on.
Charlie has not been taught to sit and stay, I am bone idle about this aspect of training and it bores the hell out of me ! I have developed my own way of getting the sit stay taught without me doing much at all. The one proviso is that the dog should be a keen retriever.

The dummy was 70 yards behind Charlie and he knew that, he also knew that I was backing away from him in the opposite direction . He wanted to move to me but he wanted the dummy too - so he stayed exactly where he was ! I have built up to this from a much easier start and now Charlie has confidence that he can have both the dummy and me !

Doing this is a bit of a balancing act. Get it wrong one way and the dog will break the sit and return to you, get it wrong the other way and the dog will run in for the dummy. You have to be very "body language" conscious - the dogs body language not yours .
No correction of any kind is given whether the dog runs in or whether it breaks sit and returns to you. You really do have to read the dog and decide whether you haven't gone far enough from him ( a run in to the dummy) or whether you have backed off just a little too far too fast (a break sit and return to you.)

Today I had the dummy 70 yards behind Charlie and me 30 yards in front of him. When I gave the arm signal and the command "Out !" he whipped himself around and belted out just as fast as he could go. He found it quickly and returned - a good retrieve.

I tried a very simple double mark. I sat Charlie and went 10 feet from him then faced him . A dummy was tossed to his left and one to his right. Charlie did what most dogs do and focused on the last dummy thrown. I sent him for the other one but he went for the last dummy anyway. I managed to stop him on whistle which rather surprised me and sent him towards the other dummy again , this time successfully. I repeated this and Charlie showed he'd got the idea by going for the dummy specified.

Two dummies were now thrown well into woodland cover and I walked Charlie away on lead. I sent him from the heel position from 50 -60 yards from the wood. He found one of the dmmies easily but he struggled to find the other one. Once more I went forward to help him and as I did so he came out of the wood. His demeanour told me he was looking for help or at least encouragement. I whistle sat him at well over 30 yards then sent him back into the wood. This time he did find the dummy.

He is coming on well at retrieving but I still need more control before letting him among game while hunting - scent of game yes - presence of game no !

Wullie

Originally posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:31 pm
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In a short while I will be taking Charlie out again - we fell out badly for the first time this afternoon. He threw his teddybear out of the pram after I informed him that he could not run in for a water retrieve. He was O.K. for the 1st dummy but after that he became a little sod ! He ended our training session by just sitting there, 10 feet from me and refusing to budge one inch in any direction ! The only bit of him that moved at all was his eyes , he sat bolt upright and glared fiercely at me , a sort of , "How dare you speak to me like that !!!" look. I went to him , he stayed right where he was and didn't appear in the least bit cowed. I grabbed him and made him come when called. At this point I stopped , I know I have a fierce temper and I could feel it rising.

So I'm taking him out again now onto game scented ground to cheer him up a bit although to be honest I think I'm more upset than he is the little so......darling !

Wullie

Originally posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:24 pm
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The bottle and me did not get aquainted 'cos the rain died away to a drizzle. Oh how I wish it had come down in monsoon proportions for I quickly took Charlie out and had a disaster. I did consider not reporting this but I said I'd try to keep this diary honest so here goes.

I took Charlie to the area I'd originally intended but nearly 2 hours later than planned. I realised this could be dodgy for this area has a lot of rabbits. They would not have been out at the time I first planned to go out but all other dog walkers were now at home. There was only, him ,me and the rabbits.

When told to hunt he tore off but fortunately could not see all the rabbits I could see running off ! The height of the grass hid the rabbits from him and the rabbits could not see him either , they were moving aside to let me pass. I sweated cobs but managed to keep Charlie under control. We crested a rise in the ground and in front of us the grass had been nibbled down to the roots by rabbits. It was like a bowling green. A bowling green with rabbits ! He chased at once , 40 yards or more. The rabbits escaped through forestry fencing but strangely Charlie was easy to recall once the rabbits had gone from view. He seemed to be listening to me !

O.K. I thought, he's had a chase, but it's not the end of the world. He even seemed to be willing to listen to me. It's not that bad, I persuaded myself. We moved on and I was doing sits to whistle with Charlie. Considering that the ground we were moving over was only vacated by the rabbits as we approached he did well in my opinion. The ground was very heavily freshly scented and he knows only too well what those scents mean ! I had him sitting to whistle at 10 to 15 yards even with that degree of scent distraction. The word sitting is actually stretching the truth a bit , he stopped to whistle but he sat to voice combined with a hand signal........ He did always stop though and I was quite pleased.

A couple of moments later Charlie spotted a rabbit 40 feet in front of him - but I'd seen it an instant before him and whistled the stop ---- and he did !!!
I was chuffed to bits and when Charlie dived into the corner of the wood where the warren is I thought nothing of it. The cover there is very high and very thick, Charlies chances of seeing a rabbit were virtually nil. Then I heard a sound that was a bit like wounded hare - not a rabbit noise, I thought Charlie had injured himself badly and called frantically for him , I couldn't see him at all in there.

Then the bushes split and out came a roe deer fawn ! I had seen the bushes move and had dropped into a semi crouch to receive Charlie as he came out because I thought he was making the noise and that it was him moving the bushes.
The fawn actually touched me as it burst out of the cover, it took me so much by surprise that I failed to catch Charlie when he emerged hot on the fawns tail. The pair of them took off across the corner of the field with the fawn bawling its head off.

I ran behind them roaring some unlikely comments about Charlie and his ancestors. My heart did not like this and let me know. I very suddenly felt very ill. I thought that was just about it, I could run no further, in fact I could not even speak.

Maybe my falling out with Charlie and shouting at him this morning had a good side after all for Charlie now left the fawn and returned to me. I pointed at it as it went away and shook him as I pointed. By this time I was down on the grass but I knew I was O.K. this has happened before when I played a big fish. I only have to stay still a while and I'm O.K. again. As I sat gasping on the grass holding on to Charlie I saw a doe appear out of the wood 60 -70 yards away. She was leading off the twin of the fawn Charlie had chased.

I stayed down for ten minutes or so then headed for home. I could have done without that tonight but I think Charlie is beginning to realise that when I blow the stop whistle I mean it.

Wullie

Originally posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:32 pm
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Charlie was out twice today, with me this morning and with my wife this evening.

I was out this morning trying to help a lady train her dog. Charlie was there as demo dog , he did his job just fine. Sits- to voice, to whistle, to hand signal were all covered at up to about 10 feet distance. He was also used to demonstrate the preliminary training for a blind retrieve, that is a short memory retrieve. He did that fine too. His services were required later when the ladies dog having done this once, refused to do it a second time. Charlie went out for the dummy that the lady had left and found it easily. The distance was very short and Charlies retrieve was nothing to write home about. ----By contrast the two retrieves he did this evening really were worth mentioning in dispatches !

I'd taken Buck my young G.S.P. out for training within a mile of my house. My wife took my other G.S.P. and Charlie out to the same place by walking there unknown to me --- I had gone there by car 'cos I'm a lazy sod !

I'd had a good training session with Buck and decided as a reward to him to put out a couple of longish memory retrieves. As I walked down a grassy path between high rough grass and a wood I dropped two dummies with about 30 yards between the two. Buck was allowed to see these and I walked on with him at heelfree position.

At the far end of the wood we bumped right into my wife coming from the other direction with the other two dogs and a mini riot ensued and my wife taught me some new words as a delighted to see her Buck darted around biting at her bum ! (Rather him than me !!! )

Anyway, we got things sorted out and an idea entered my head Buck could do those two memory retrieves standing on his head - but could Charlie do them as blinds ???

The nearest dummy was about 90 yards away up the grassed over pathway , the 2nd dummy was 120 -130 yards away up that path. Charlie had been with my wife he had no idea the dummies were out there. I really shouldn't have sent Charlie but I had confidence in him , he is one hell of a good wee retriever.

I sat him, walked a few yards further out then turned and using an arm signal and a vocal "Out !" command I sent him towards the dummies. He turned and stormed up the pathway (great things pathways ! ) when he got to within a few yards of the dummy and could see it lying on the short grass he began "proinking " out of sheer high spirited exuberance ! I love watching him do that, it always makes me smile. Back he came with that dummy while I bragged to my admiring wife that "Yes , I've trained him that quite well." He ran right on past me and my wife and the other two dogs to do a few victory circuits of the field while still holding his trophy ! The little sod- my bragging had been going well too !

This apealled to my wifes twisted sense of humour (mines is just offbeat) she dissolved into laughter as I tried to capture the little beeper !!! Strange creatures wummin !

I got things back under control then lined him up from the heel position for the further out blind retieve. This was 120 -130 yards away, that's a long way for a wee dog that only did very short, simple , run in style marked retrieves less than two months ago. When sent he again zoomed out up the path , checked for a second where he'd picked the first dummy, then just as I began to worry, picked up speed again and ran out to the 2nd dummy. He returned fast and again sideslipped me but this time he took the dummy to my wife. I was absolutely delighted with those retieves from Charlie - so pleased that I even gave my wife a lift home !

Wullie