druimmuir wrote:I get the impression that Sirius's pups would not have been sold to trial homes but as pets and perhaps shooting dogs, so we would be unlikely to have hearsd of any achievements.
I can understand that, but what Im wondering is the background here, because if badgercourt lines are/were special then why are they not still seen as such by current breeders? On paper his dogs seem to provide very strong badgercourt stock that could happily sit next to any rytex type pedigree as an outcross? without worry....so why arent they?
Because they aren't bred anymore, how can they be when Peter isn't here to breed them, just putting two dogs together isnt what its about.
Peter, just like Opie and many other top handler/breeder know 100% what they wish to achieve, they have hands on experience with most lines and the breeding behind them. So when it comes to putting dogs together they dont just do it from paper work.
Yes I apreciate that, but e.g. the latest badgercourt sirrius (bred by peter) sired by a dog that it appears peter owned and ran FTW and a bitch out of Jeremy's kennel again FTW, another 13 badgercourt dogs behind it (out of 24) in the next 3 gens. so it seems good genetics in there and obviously of Peters choosing...so why is it not being used...
http://www.facebook.com/arwesa
As a handler, its impossible to make your dog perform better than it is, but very easy to make it perform far worse.
arwesa wrote:Yes I apreciate that, but e.g. the latest badgercourt sirrius (bred by peter) sired by a dog that it appears peter owned and ran FTW and a bitch out of Jeremy's kennel again FTW, another 13 badgercourt dogs behind it (out of 24) in the next 3 gens. so it seems good genetics in there and obviously of Peters choosing...so why is it not being used...
As Nicola has said, it has been used but not by trialling people, I don't know the Thornycourt guy but I do know that he doesn't trial therefore how is any trialling guy ever going to see the potential of his dog? You won't find the likes of Opie, Will Clulee, Ian English etc etc surfing the net for stud dogs! You could have the best potential FTCh bitch or dog and subsequent pups in your kennels but if you don't sell them to trialling people then that potential is never taken forward. I know of a fair few dogs on shoots that are extremely impressive and could've made FTW if not FTChs but their owners are shooting people and do not trial. That is the way of dogs. I used to think when I saw several pups (labs and spaniels) that I had bred as adults in the shooting field that they had been 'wasted' in terms of the fact that they were clearly triallable but now I have realised that it is not a waste, it is just not everyone's choice to trial. I keep an eye on these dogs for my own breeding plans and might choose to use them or take a pup from them in the future.
arwesa wrote:Yes I apreciate that, but e.g. the latest badgercourt sirrius (bred by peter) sired by a dog that it appears peter owned and ran FTW and a bitch out of Jeremy's kennel again FTW, another 13 badgercourt dogs behind it (out of 24) in the next 3 gens. so it seems good genetics in there and obviously of Peters choosing...so why is it not being used...
As Nicola has said, it has been used but not by trialling people, I don't know the Thornycourt guy but I do know that he doesn't trial therefore how is any trialling guy ever going to see the potential of his dog? You won't find the likes of Opie, Will Clulee, Ian English etc etc surfing the net for stud dogs! You could have the best potential FTCh bitch or dog and subsequent pups in your kennels but if you don't sell them to trialling people then that potential is never taken forward. I know of a fair few dogs on shoots that are extremely impressive and could've made FTW if not FTChs but their owners are shooting people and do not trial. That is the way of dogs. I used to think when I saw several pups (labs and spaniels) that I had bred as adults in the shooting field that they had been 'wasted' in terms of the fact that they were clearly triallable but now I have realised that it is not a waste, it is just not everyone's choice to trial. I keep an eye on these dogs for my own breeding plans and might choose to use them or take a pup from them in the future.
you hit the nail right on the head their rothievale its horses for courses, if you see what dogs the top men(and ladies) are using you wont go far from the best
So in short either triallers have looked at these dogs and said no thanks, or not bothered about lines and go for the flashy trialing dog they have seen at an event?
So either these badgercourt are not as good as those of old, or an untapped goldmine of genetic diversity lmao
I find it interesting that as a beginner I'm trying to look for diversity and add to mine in the future, yet it seems successful trainers are being suggested as going for the obvious 'flavours of the month' on the whole, or is it that they choose performance and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon?
I can't get my head round the fact that badgercourt is seen as a great pool or genetic gold, yet what's clearly available isn't being used. :s unless what's about now actually is better than what was about then ?
http://www.facebook.com/arwesa
As a handler, its impossible to make your dog perform better than it is, but very easy to make it perform far worse.
It is indeed horses for courses. I have a preference for large springers, and from observation, most trials dogs are much smaller than I prefer. Buzz and Rowf have lots of successful trials dogs in their pedigrees, but were bred by a friend who has no interest in trialling and likes big springers (most of the work he does with his dogs is picking up). Incidentally, Badgercourt and Bricksclose feature fairly heavily in their pedigrees and Buzz was sired by one of Jeremy Organ's dogs.
Inside every springer, no matter how well trained, is an idiot trying to get out
Thanks for this. I have spoken to Ron and the dog is now dead but he has got some pups on at the moment which sound interesting. I am calling him again later to discuss.
Many thanks once again.
Jonathan
PS I forgot to use the quote - this was a reply to Lewis.
Last edited by keanerthanroy on Sat May 07, 2011 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So in short either triallers have looked at these dogs and said no thanks, or not bothered about lines and go for the flashy trialing dog they have seen at an event?
So either these badgercourt are not as good as those of old, or an untapped goldmine of genetic diversity lmao
I find it interesting that as a beginner I'm trying to look for diversity and add to mine in the future, yet it seems successful trainers are being suggested as going for the obvious 'flavours of the month' on the whole, or is it that they choose performance and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon?
I can't get my head round the fact that badgercourt is seen as a great pool or genetic gold, yet what's clearly available isn't being used. :s unless what's about now actually is better than what was about then ?
It is a bit confusing and is really difficult to know what to do when you don't know the dogs and they have n't been trialled. I think there is also the argument that if you are entering trials you want to enter them with a dog that will get you the results. If judges are favouring the fast, frantic and flashy then it makes sense to be competing with one of these. I personally prefer a more solid stamp of spaniel which bashes the brambles and finds game well. I don't like the look of lots of the spaniels you see today, some of them hardly resemble the breed but on the other hand they do the job well so like everyone seems to be saying - horses for courses.
arwesa wrote:
I find it interesting that as a beginner I'm trying to look for diversity and add to mine in the future, yet it seems successful trainers are being suggested as going for the obvious 'flavours of the month' on the whole, or is it that they choose performance and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon?
Thats the thing Arwesa, the most succesfull use the best dogs.By the time most people hear of a stud dog the top men are already trialling young stock off the dog.If the dog is a superstar the top men know about it.Some dogs are very well used for a reason and that is they are the best.Whilst some people use a dog that is not that commonly used,so they dont follow the herd or know better than others ,there is a reason it is not commonly used.It is not the best
,there is a reason it is not commonly used.It is not the best 