Article on the state of the modern day springer spaniel

[madrags]

Not all springers trial, indeed the majority do not. Many people that enjoy working their dogs have zero interest in trialling, and prefer dogs of substance for a long day's work, rather than little whippety springers. I can see how the modern trend springers are more likely to win trials - are triallers so up their own fundaments that they cannot see another's point of view?

[Alice]

tjack- I'm 100% in agreement with you.

[keanerthanroy]

Peterbeater - Does it matter or make a difference how many champions he has made up?

[Rothievale]

So i am at a loss to work out the point of the st article.

This is a real shame peterbeater and maybe the editing by ST made it a bit more difficult to understand. In a nutshell, it was not intended on being an article about his success (or lack of!!!) in trials and in breeding but about how the modern day trialling bloodlines are not suiting or satisfying the average rough shooting man which is really what trials should be for. To my knowledge Jeremy has qualified 7 times for the championship but he first love is fox hunting which has always taken precedence before trialling and so he does not trek across the countryside running in lots of trials, instead he would rather be on horseback! I think his best credentials are in his judging, he has judged springer and cocker championships both here and abroad and judges many open and novice trials such is the demand for his expertise, he is a fair, measured and knowledgable judge and I don't know anyone that wouldn't want to run under him.

[peterbeater]

So i am at a loss to work out the point of the st article.

but he first love is fox hunting which has always taken precedence before trialling

A man of impecable taste,for there is no finer sport in the world than fox hunting

[Rothievale]

Not all springers trial, indeed the majority do not. Many people that enjoy working their dogs have zero interest in trialling, and prefer dogs of substance for a long day's work, rather than little whippety springers. I can see how the modern trend springers are more likely to win trials - are triallers so up their own fundaments that they cannot see another's point of view?

I do wholeheartedly agree with Jeremy's article yet I have bred a small, slight framed, white springer bitch who has been my best dog both working and trialling. Despite her build she is quite capable of working all day in -15 or less up here in the Highlands, ok we don't have the cover you do down there but we do have arctic conditions and thick gorse. She has also done well in trials but first and foremost she is a working dog who goes beating, picking up and rough shooting on average 3 days a week. So it can be done! I would never have planned on having a dog that small (her mother was a big strong bitch) but it is just how she turned out. I really think that most trial dogs are quite capable of doing a hard days work it is just that their owners/handlers don't want them to!

[Sgurr]

And a little addition to an earlier post viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8511

Springer sprung
The bird is riz
I wonder why 'style' is the biz?
What happened to the colour too:
Edgegrove, Rytex or Buccleuch?

I really liked the article by JO. I have two dogs from Laddie, one 5 gen Rytex free and one by A. Breeze, plus a bitch by A. Basher. So please take the doggerel as the bit of fun it is meant to be!

Sgurr

[madrags]

He is also a superb geneticist (as was his father, who revolutionised pig breeding in this country). He will see a trait in a dog and ask if "Sire X" is in the pedigree - and it inevitably is!

[countrryboy]

Now i'm not as knowledgable or experienced as many on here, but have been reading this thread with great interest and it is something i have a strong view on but could never understand why noone else mentions it.

I totally agree with wot kelco said that the vast majority of dog owners put there poor to average bitches to which ever FTCH stud is fashionable at that time, which does not help the breed 1 bit. Infact it will only help to lessen the gene pool as every dog will be linked by the same few top sires no matter which part off the country they were bred. I think very few look at any deficencies in the bitch and try to get a sire to improve those faults and jist want top dollar for the pups, would probably get equally good if not better working dogs breeding of a known dog off the shoot.

There has been a lot off talk about breeding for style but no one has mentioned the breed standard, as shooters we are very quick to critise the show breeders for breeding heavier dogs. But are the FT any better, Labs look like whippet crosses, springers are like cockers and cockers are too small to do their job. My mate has a young cocker bitch which in my opinion is far to small and only good for putting in a handbag, it will never manage a cock pheas or hare and may struggle with a rabbit. I go walked up grouse with him on long rank heather it will never manage a whole day and will no doubt possibly badly skin her teats. At some point u have to say dogs were bred that size for 00's of years for a reason yet in 30yrs the breeds have changed beyond recognition

While i'm on a roll,
In the old days when i was a boy u could pretty much look at a lab and tell which keeper/estate it come off as a couple off estates had specific looks, but it meant it was easy to get an outside blood without any fear of being related as in those days u didn't travel much. It meant u would have a massive population of pretty much unrelated dogs across the country, unlike now.
The other benefit in the old days was the majority off pups were sold around the beating line on that or neighbouring estates, it meant u could make allowances for poor training and look at the natural abilities of a dog to see the best ones to breed off. Nowadays u could give the top trainers almost any dog with a wee bit a natural ability and they could do wonders with it. Because that dog becomes a FTW/FTCH does not mean it was the best dog in the litter jist the best trained and u also dinae ken how hard that paticular dog was to train to that level. It would only take 1 or 2 top sires to have some genetic problem (esp if ressesive) or very very hard to train and it could be right throu the breeding. Not a good thing in my humble opinion

[Boundarymoor]

So are you saying this new prospect is looking great AND modern breeding (being all white?) and therefor disagreeing? if so, comparing to your previous more 'traditional' lines what are you finding to be positives/negative differences if any?

He's as soft as a brush, scared of his own shadow, but when he hunts he has a lovely action, retrieves well but just lacks confidence. My previous "traditional lines" never lacked boldness, just bashed about everywhere. I believe I will be able to do something with him, even if he lacks confidence, I'll bring him on slowly and see in a few months how he's devoloping. I never right them off too soon. A great example of this is my 3yr old dog, winning to Open Tests back to back at the weekend, but I didnt start training him until he was 12 months old. We did the basics, but due to an illness, his training was slow, he was my two young Son's play dog. Suddenly it clicked and I took him back, they now have a broken coated Russell, who follows them everywhere as a play dog.