What do we think of this?

[Stacia]

I am sorry to say, but I see so many spaniel owner train their dogs like that, though not usually the slap; I think it is because they can lift the dog up, try doing that with a Lab, much heavier. I haven't seen a Lab trained in the same way, or a GSP.

[Judy]

Could this be why Spaniels are said to be so hard to train?

[Wendy M]

I'm sure most of us have seen this type of training - in fact many older books teach us to train this way. This is Old School training that was once the norm, however many trainers have now realised that this type of training is just not necessary in order to teach a dog to stop/sit.

If you watch the dogs body language and behaviour you will notice that it doesn't just happily sit when the whistle is blown - it lies down and lip licks - signs that the dog is expecting intimidation and physical correction and is using appeasing signals, to desperately try to calm the situation. When the trainer comes back towards the dog the dog does the same, flattening his body, lip licking and belly crawling.

The old school interpretation of this body language was that the dog knew it had "done wrong" and was "apologising" - if this was the case it would not show the body language as the whistle was blown, this is a dog communicating something more along the lines of "I'm worried - please calm down."

If a dog expects something good to happen as soon as it stops/sits the body language would be very different.

If you put the emphasis on working FOR something it doesn't matter how "hard" or "soft" or "hot" is. It will work because it wants to, not because you have intimidated him into compliance.

Wendy

[Judy]

Well said Wendy.

[WGD]

If you put the emphasis on working FOR something it doesn't matter how "hard" or "soft" or "hot" is. It will work because it wants to, not because you have intimidated him into compliance.

Wendy

And when you have put a hard headed, hot spaniel into a pressure situation and it has performed because it "wants" to I will buy into that. What it "wants" to do is what it's prey drive tells it to which is to hunt, chase and catch.

I don't completely disagree with your ethos, and training is now much more sympathetic to the dogs mindset than it used to be, but now and again a physical reprimand (not necessarily in the case of the dog in this clip) works better than a negotiation.

[Wendy M]

If you put the emphasis on working FOR something it doesn't matter how "hard" or "soft" or "hot" is. It will work because it wants to, not because you have intimidated him into compliance.

Wendy

And when you have put a hard headed, hot spaniel into a pressure situation and it has performed because it "wants" to I will buy into that. What it "wants" to do is what it's prey drive tells it to which is to hunt, chase and catch.

I don't completely disagree with your ethos, and training is now much more sympathetic to the dogs mindset than it used to be, but now and again a physical reprimand (not necessarily in the case of the dog in this clip) works better than a negotiation.

What if through thoughtful and progressive training you have taught the dog that the fastest and the only way to get the thing that it wants (that rabbit/pheasant etc) is to stop?

Wendy

[kent]

I am sorry to say, but I see so many spaniel owner train their dogs like that, though not usually the slap; I think it is because they can lift the dog up, try doing that with a Lab, much heavier. I haven't seen a Lab trained in the same way, or a GSP.

No problem the biggest male GSP will run around 45 kg a real good size fella can do that one handed certainly with both hands ( the issue is provided he is tall enough for the back legs to leave the floor). Trust me when I say the Germans are so way harder with their dogs. Anyone who knows the testing (especially the duck and cat tests know that) Never mind Irish ESS try a full blood GWP import. Lifting a Lab off the floor? Try P.R.A Moxon training and field trials page 97 (feet not off floor though) captioned " correction by shaking is most effective" the slide under illustrates using a lead threatening correction. Caption reads " whipping should be avoided if possible" Now he wasn't that sturdy a fella and Labs were bigger back then (as were springers ).
Now anyone want to say they know far better then perhaps we should await their book being published and seeing how many re-prints it runs into and how many top trainers of today can still quote their work written 50 yrs on

[Springfield Pointers]

Lifting a Lab off the floor? Try P.R.A Moxon training and field trials page 97 (feet not off floor though) captioned " correction by shaking is most effective"

First published in 1952. I'd like to think most of us have moved on a fair bit. There have been a few more books written since then. Beating up on women was also not frowned upon back then either.

[Qest12]

I don't like hard correction if I ever had another dog that needed it then it would be a choice of moving it on (honestly) to someone more suited or destruction (if it was proving dangerous).

That is the thing; the human race is becoming softer, and so are the dogs. In other words, we have become more civilized, thus us not wanting to physically correct the dog if we can avoid it. Therefore we avoid breeding from hard dogs that may need the physical approach.

[kent]

If you put the emphasis on working FOR something it doesn't matter how "hard" or "soft" or "hot" is. It will work because it wants to, not because you have intimidated him into compliance.

Wendy

And when you have put a hard headed, hot spaniel into a pressure situation and it has performed because it "wants" to I will buy into that. What it "wants" to do is what it's prey drive tells it to which is to hunt, chase and catch.

I don't completely disagree with your ethos, and training is now much more sympathetic to the dogs mindset than it used to be, but now and again a physical reprimand (not necessarily in the case of the dog in this clip) works better than a negotiation.

What if through thoughtful and progressive training you have taught the dog that the fastest and the only way to get the thing that it wants (that rabbit/pheasant etc) is to stop?

Wendy

Well you will have a well fed dog or a lot of dead rabbits. Hunting and killing is blooming good fun to some dogs, I 100% believe some will trade their lives for it (after all that is the pack hunting ethos). Doubt that? Get yourself a good work bred terrier