Gundog Training Forum

ips wrote:Um, well I no nothing really but I have always been a strange fellow and if I was a dog and all of sudden had to "work" for my favourite toy I would not want that toy anymore or not as much anyway as the moment would have gone plus I would not want it just to be awkward because you (or I) changed the goal posts.
That's how I see it but as I say I no nowt.

If I could get something with ease all the time, I would probably bore of that object?

If you went out with eze and dropped the tennis ball by your feet, time after time after time etc I am pretty sure he would get bored of it?

Saying that my clown would probably just run of with it and hide it himself, but my point is challenging it sometimes increases drive?

An example of this is a long memory, the further away mine gets the more lively he is of the mark!

The same as when a ball lands out of site and he has to hunt for it, he goes up a gear. Throw a ball on a plain field 10 yards in front, he will run out and get it, but it's not with the same pace or enthusiasm.

Ever taken a toy of your kids when they where younger, certainly doesn't stop them wanting it!

Rm

(the guy who recently confiscated his sons bow and arrow (sticky of course) for shooting it as his sister because she didn't move out the way fast enough)

Are you always throwing the dummy on short grass or do you throw it in long cover as well where you can't see it and the dog has to hunt for it?

Cass
50% in realatively short grass 50% in long grass, bracken, pile of leaves or generally hidden from view by terrain.

Rough_mut wrote:

ips wrote:Um, well I no nothing really but I have always been a strange fellow and if I was a dog and all of sudden had to "work" for my favourite toy I would not want that toy anymore or not as much anyway as the moment would have gone plus I would not want it just to be awkward because you (or I) changed the goal posts.
That's how I see it but as I say I no nowt.

If I could get something with ease all the time, I would probably bore of that object?

If you went out with eze and dropped the tennis ball by your feet, time after time after time etc I am pretty sure he would get bored of it?

Saying that my clown would probably just run of with it and hide it himself, but my point is challenging it sometimes increases drive?

An example of this is a long memory, the further away mine gets the more lively he is of the mark!

The same as when a ball lands out of site and he has to hunt for it, he goes up a gear. Throw a ball on a plain field 10 yards in front, he will run out and get it, but it's not with the same pace or enthusiasm.

Ever taken a toy of your kids when they where younger, certainly doesn't stop them wanting it!
)

As I say I am a strange fellow very contrary, I tend to do the opposite to whats expected

Rm, I agree with you - lots of the dogs I've worked with tend to value an object MORE if they have to work for it. Any of the poodle crosses I've worked with, for example, tend to be much more food motivated when they have to work for it compared to being given it in a bowl.

I don't think I expressed it very well on my post (I blame single malt)
I suppose it depends on how you use the ball. If its a reward for doing good work with other items then making dog steady on it makes it one of the other items also and ceases to have the same meaning. . A reward. That's what I meant, I think

ips wrote:I don't think I expressed it very well on my post (I blame single malt)

Ahem. Bit early ips. Steady on...

Springfield Pointers wrote:

ips wrote:I don't think I expressed it very well on my post (I blame single malt)

Ahem. Bit early ips. Steady on...

In my defence the badly written post was 9.58pm sun definitely over the yard arm.

In some circles, Ips, the concern with rewards not faded out, the argument is the reward can devalue the behavior that is being trained. For instance, receiving a treat or a ball for delivery to hand if not fazed out will become the dog's motivation and not the retrieve. Likewise, a force fetch dog in the end should be carrying out the behavior because of its intrinsic value and not because of the earlier introduction of compulsion. And as to steady, the same of course applies, the reward needs to move to the actual retrieve or the 'continued hunt' as the fuel for motivation.

Um, I see your reasoning. So is it a case of slowly fading out the reward (a morsel of sausage for example) once the behaviour is well and truly learned ie the retrieve ??
But then does one ever reintroduce the reward if for whatever reason there is a lapse in the behaviour ??