delivery issues

[David]

Tethered on a table!!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PICjHqYM7_Y

[ips]

I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable to me once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

Totally disagree, you painting a picture of force fetch which this isn't. Dave Lisset demonstrates on his DVD something very similar with a young dog that keeps spitting the dummy on return. No force, just gentle encouragement with praise. He's on his knees at the dogs level rather than the dog being at the handlers level.

Partly my point, he is on his knees at the dogs level you say. In these vids the dogs are placed presumably deliberately at a level that is not in there comfort zone, on a table, presumably in order to instill a degree of dominance. Get real, this is not Imo a pleasurable experience it is intimidation of the dog, you can see it in the eyes of the dogs in all the videos I have seen.

[chrokeva]

Tethered on a table!!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PICjHqYM7_Y

funny!

I do not think the video we are talking about here is really even considered a force hold by most but is more of a mild encouragement to hold a object.
Force hold/fetch usually involves "force" and this really does not.

[Naj]

Sounds like you're talking about a different process, David. This video started on day three after the dog had become resigned to the fact that it had no option and therefore was compliant. Even so it looks subdued and not particularly enthused to be there. He even mentioned that if it wasn't on a tight leash it would still be trying to dodge out of the way. What we have to go on is his comment that day one wasn't pretty. That doesn't sound like the technique DL is using - no force but gentle encouragement with praise. :think

Naj

[chrokeva]

I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable to me once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

Totally disagree, you painting a picture of force fetch which this isn't. Dave Lisset demonstrates on his DVD something very similar with a young dog that keeps spitting the dummy on return. No force, just gentle encouragement with praise. He's on his knees at the dogs level rather than the dog being at the handlers level.

Partly my point, he is on his knees at the dogs level you say. In these vids the dogs are placed presumably deliberately at a level that is not in there comfort zone, on a table, presumably in order to instill a degree of dominance. Get real, this is not Imo a pleasurable experience it is intimidation of the dog, you can see it in the eyes of the dogs in all the videos I have seen.

Actually I think putting a dog up on a table is less intimidating to the dog because a person is not looming over them. I know my dog jumps up on a high object to get as close to eye level with me whenever she can.

[ips]

I agree my bitch dislikes being loomed over too. Have you tried putting yours on a table, tying it tightly to the ceiling and forcing a dummy into its mouth. Let me know when you do and how your dog interacted with you after.

[David]

Sounds like you're talking about a different process, David. This video started on day three after the dog had become resigned to the fact that it had no option and therefore was compliant. Even so it looks subdued and not particularly enthused to be there. He even mentioned that if it wasn't on a tight leash it would still be trying to dodge out of the way. What we have to go on is his comment that day one wasn't pretty. That doesn't sound like the technique DL is using - no force but gentle encouragement with praise. :think

Naj

No, the same process, just a different location. No force in either just repetition and praise, the dog will be less receptive on the first day but that doesn't mean there is force or pain, just keeping at it until the dog works out whats required.

I'm sure we have all had a dog that squirms, barks or clamps itself to the floor the first time it's on the lead. If that was filmed on day one it wouldn't look good but a few day's later things are much different...

[Judy]

This thread is just going round in circles, I'm pretty sure the original poster has given up in despair after four or five pages which are, pretty much, no use to them. I would have split the thread if I could find a clear cut off point but I can't so can we just accept that opinions are divided on whether its acceptable to put a dog on a table and open its mouth to get it to hold a dummy and get back to suggestions as to how the Op can get his / her dog to present the dummy rather than drop it at his / her feet? Please.

[trekmoor]

Never has so much been written about so little by so few.

Wullie

[Naj]

I guess we've all got a different interpretation of what constitutes force, including the dog.