Gundog Training Forum

David wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Naj wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 2:11 pm I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable to me once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

Totally disagree, you painting a picture of force fetch which this isn't. Dave Lisset demonstrates on his DVD something very similar with a young dog that keeps spitting the dummy on return. No force, just gentle encouragement with praise. He's on his knees at the dogs level rather than the dog being at the handlers level.

David wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 8:30 pm Tethered on a table!!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PICjHqYM7_Y

ips wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 8:37 pm

David wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Naj wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 2:11 pm I think if someone, even the trainer in this video, had posted what actually happens on the first day of hold training, where, to put it mildly, the handler is effectively bullying the dog into taking hold while the dog is doing its utmost to resist, then the comments might have been less favourable or muted. You can see this on u tube and to quote the trainer, it's not pretty. I've used this technique in the past but I wouldn't wish to use it again because I no longer think it is any way to treat a dog, even if it does work. It was acceptable to me once, partly because public attitudes were different and partly because there were no effective alternatives, but there are now and I try to improve on how I train, especially if it means a more pleasant experience for the dog and me.

Totally disagree, you painting a picture of force fetch which this isn't. Dave Lisset demonstrates on his DVD something very similar with a young dog that keeps spitting the dummy on return. No force, just gentle encouragement with praise. He's on his knees at the dogs level rather than the dog being at the handlers level.

Partly my point, he is on his knees at the dogs level you say. In these vids the dogs are placed presumably deliberately at a level that is not in there comfort zone, on a table, presumably in order to instill a degree of dominance. Get real, this is not Imo a pleasurable experience it is intimidation of the dog, you can see it in the eyes of the dogs in all the videos I have seen.

Naj wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 8:46 pm Sounds like you're talking about a different process, David. This video started on day three after the dog had become resigned to the fact that it had no option and therefore was compliant. Even so it looks subdued and not particularly enthused to be there. He even mentioned that if it wasn't on a tight leash it would still be trying to dodge out of the way. What we have to go on is his comment that day one wasn't pretty. That doesn't sound like the technique DL is using - no force but gentle encouragement with praise. :think

Naj