Gundog Training Forum

The best handler ,or the best trainer is not necessarily the best breeder!(imo)

liverandwhite wrote:

arwesa wrote:
I find it interesting that as a beginner I'm trying to look for diversity and add to mine in the future, yet it seems successful trainers are being suggested as going for the obvious 'flavours of the month' on the whole, or is it that they choose performance and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon?

Thats the thing Arwesa, the most succesfull use the best dogs.By the time most people hear of a stud dog the top men are already trialling young stock off the dog.If the dog is a superstar the top men know about it.Some dogs are very well used for a reason and that is they are the best.Whilst some people use a dog that is not that commonly used,so they dont follow the herd or know better than others ,there is a reason it is not commonly used.It is not the best

But is that really the case... ...are the dogs the best trainers use jumped on as great sires when infact its just that trialling breeding is a bit of a herd mentality i.e. xxxxxx's ftch was out of this sire so I want some of that. Those dogs are trained by the best trainers and therefor win...(its linked to Pol's thread about nature, vs nurture etc.) IF triallers all use the same sires then it follows there are lines theyre not using...is it just because theyre not trialled theyre not used, dont win and theyre branded 'rubbish'?. Is it too easy to follow the herd?

I really wish the KC online breeding database was available its impossible to know what dogs in full have been sired by whom and what theyve all achieved (if anything). Lochindorb is ok but not uptodate.

Rothievale wrote:

arwesa wrote:Yes I apreciate that, but e.g. the latest badgercourt sirrius (bred by peter) sired by a dog that it appears peter owned and ran FTW and a bitch out of Jeremy's kennel again FTW, another 13 badgercourt dogs behind it (out of 24) in the next 3 gens. so it seems good genetics in there and obviously of Peters choosing...so why is it not being used...

As Nicola has said, it has been used but not by trialling people, I don't know the Thornycourt guy but I do know that he doesn't trial therefore how is any trialling guy ever going to see the potential of his dog? You won't find the likes of Opie, Will Clulee, Ian English etc etc surfing the net for stud dogs! You could have the best potential FTCh bitch or dog and subsequent pups in your kennels but if you don't sell them to trialling people then that potential is never taken forward. I know of a fair few dogs on shoots that are extremely impressive and could've made FTW if not FTChs but their owners are shooting people and do not trial. That is the way of dogs. I used to think when I saw several pups (labs and spaniels) that I had bred as adults in the shooting field that they had been 'wasted' in terms of the fact that they were clearly triallable but now I have realised that it is not a waste, it is just not everyone's choice to trial. I keep an eye on these dogs for my own breeding plans and might choose to use them or take a pup from them in the future.

A very realistic post. Trialing isin`t everything and I `m pleased that you too have reached that conclusion.Using your own stock ( those that you have bred ) in the future will be very bit as beneficial to you as using the lastest FTCH or even more so.

Reply for you Bill?
"As Nicola has said, it has been used but not by trialling people"

That would indicate that the line has been used?.....but not trialled! yes!
So why?.....
Or has the intended market been changed for that line?..
Or ,has commercial influence on breeding that line been the desired market for the shooting field?...not necessarily the trialling field?

just a few thoughts as i ponder my way through the commercial background of various breeders and triallers, and people

When the seagulls follow the trawler.......

I have met Tony Emery(Thornycourt guy) once 3 years ago and have to say that I found him a nice guy and knew a lot about the Badgercourt line.Peter Combes actually took back one of his the Thornycourt stud dogs to trial before he was taken ill and passed away.(so he must have rated the dog/and I would imagine that he would know.)

I don't buy that these dogs are not bought by the top trialling men because they are not up it.My experience with most of the "top Trialling men" are that they promote their own lines and most have a FTCH/FTW stud dog and want to promote him.

I went to Thornycourt spaniels to buy a Badgercourt bred dog for my best friend who had me plagued to find him a Warlord line spaniel bitch because it was all that he has ever owned and shot over.Thornycourt was the strongest Bagdercourt line that I could find and I picked him a b+w bitch.The day before that I bought 2 pups for myself out of one of the top FTCH's Dogs in the country bred to a winning top well known bitch.(top drawer stuff).I sold the bitch pup at a year old as she wouldn't hunt and the dog went to trials,ran in 4 and didn't have the gears required and I sold him last week as a shooting dog.I also bought a year a pup later out of a winner of the championship and gave that away last week(free) as it was a crocodile with noise,bursting dummies for fun and barking like a hound at water.

I have spent up on four grand on top trial bred dogs and have zero to show for it and my mate with his thornycourt bitch has a hunting machine with no faults that would blow a hole in anything that I have owned in the last 7 years.That sold the old lines to me and a good hunting dog man(or woman) is as good a judge/breeder as some of the big guns in trialling.

I am not going to talk down anyones lines here on this site but I will give due credit to anyone who breeds a dog that impresses me.(because I'm a very fussy F***er)

My mate now has 8 pups and four dogs and 4 bitches out of his dog mated to a FTCH dog that has 9(open stakes won).The pups are 3 weeks old and all gone, 6 out of the 8 to trial men............

Hi Kelco

That was a very interesting read. I have a bitch that has strong Badgercourt lines and she is the best dog I have ever had - tremendous gun sense, 100% sound in every way but lacks the top gear to trial. I put her to a really hard going dog with lines which I like and has also thrown some good pups but I was disappointed with the pups. I have spoken to Tony at Thorneycourt but probably wrongly asked myself the same questions as Arwesa posted - If these dogs are decent how come no one seems to be trialling them. I also see a lot of pups advertised by his Badgercourt Sirius but they all seem to be used on the shooting mans bitch and so it is a bit of the unknown as to whether he is throwing good stuff or not. I am now not sure which route to take as I have spoken to Ron Loomes and he has some very well bred pups available and the dog he has used has the lines in I was looking for but not the bitch, but the bitch's pedigree is FTCh galore. On the other hand there are a couple of litters about which are Badgercourt and then Thorneycourt stuff in recent generations but as we've said without the red in the recent generations. I think I'm going to have to have a good think!!

keanerthanroy wrote:When the seagulls follow the trawler.......

Brilliant

kelco wrote:I have met Tony Emery(Thornycourt guy) once 3 years ago and have to say that I found him a nice guy and knew a lot about the Badgercourt line.Peter Combes actually took back one of his the Thornycourt stud dogs to trial before he was taken ill and passed away.(so he must have rated the dog/and I would imagine that he would know.)

I don't buy that these dogs are not bought by the top trialling men because they are not up it.My experience with most of the "top Trialling men" are that they promote their own lines and most have a FTCH/FTW stud dog and want to promote him.

I went to Thornycourt spaniels to buy a Badgercourt bred dog for my best friend who had me plagued to find him a Warlord line spaniel bitch because it was all that he has ever owned and shot over.Thornycourt was the strongest Bagdercourt line that I could find and I picked him a b+w bitch.The day before that I bought 2 pups for myself out of one of the top FTCH's Dogs in the country bred to a winning top well known bitch.(top drawer stuff).I sold the bitch pup at a year old as she wouldn't hunt and the dog went to trials,ran in 4 and didn't have the gears required and I sold him last week as a shooting dog.I also bought a year a pup later out of a winner of the championship and gave that away last week(free) as it was a crocodile with noise,bursting dummies for fun and barking like a hound at water.

I have spent up on four grand on top trial bred dogs and have zero to show for it and my mate with his thornycourt bitch has a hunting machine with no faults that would blow a hole in anything that I have owned in the last 7 years.That sold the old lines to me and a good hunting dog man(or woman) is as good a judge/breeder as some of the big guns in trialling.

I am not going to talk down anyones lines here on this site but I will give due credit to anyone who breeds a dog that impresses me.(because I'm a very fussy F***er)

My mate now has 8 pups and four dogs and 4 bitches out of his dog mated to a FTCH dog that has 9(open stakes won).The pups are 3 weeks old and all gone, 6 out of the 8 to trial men............

what dog did he use that has won 9 open stakes ??

Apologies Paul 7 Opens.Had to look it up.